emperor | Corbyn vs Smith again

Inevitably, I've heard nothing in response to my email to the two teams, despite a gentle poke on twitter. With a week to go before the deadline, I still need to work out who to vote for.

It's a rather unappealing choice; Jeremy Corbyn has made no sign of thinking he needs to work more effectively with the PLP and is now clearly quite happy for us to leave the EU. Owen Smith strikes me as politically thin (in the sense that I'm not sure he has strongly-held political beliefs), I have little confidence that he's as left-wing as he's trying to appear right now, he keeps being a sexist pig, I don't see him strongly opposing blaming immigrants for society's woes.

So, Corbyn who is generally closer to me politically or Smith who is clearly closer to me on what is my currently number 1 issue, the EU?

I think the most pressing issue at the moment politically is trying to ensure we remain in the EU; if we do actually leave it'll be very very hard to un-do. Which I think means I am reluctantly moving towards voting for Owen Smith. I'm definitely still persuadable either way, though, particularly if either candidate says or does something that addresses my concerns.

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Well, whatever happens with the Labour leadership, we ain't staying in the EU. So, discounting that, how do things balance out?

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case at all - there might be a second referendum and/or a general election before the Article 50 negotiating window expires. I think it's a mistake for people keen on remaining in the EU to give up just yet.

We should also be keen to be open to future membership of the EU - Corbyn and his circle lean towards a socialism-in-one-country school, is my impression.

[you appear to have posted this twice; shall I remove the other copy? I left it screened for now]

I think talking about a second referendum now, like Smith is, is a disaster and will be alienating the people who voted Brexit in the first (who are significant enough in the Labour heartlands that they can't afford to alienate them). I'm hoping for a general election before Article 50, but I think the best way of getting it is by not boxing May into a corner, and waiting to see whether the Brexiteers produce anything; there's a fair change they'll self-immolate first.

And I think Smith is a Blairite triangulator, and that is a strategy that only works if your party has a clear and recognisable position to triangulate away from. They're not going to get a better shot than Corbyn at articulating an anchor, and then the focus-group wonks will have something to work with.

I haven't completely decided whether I'm going to vote or not, but if I do it'll be a vote for the PLP to get with the programme.

Right now, the focus groups are saying that it's electorally advantageous to be just a little bit racist: and Owen Smith is listening.

I have every confidence that he realises it's wrong.

OTOH, if everyone keeps being a bit racist because the focus groups say it plays well, then that Overton window is never going to shift in a good direction, is it? :(

It isn't triangulation, it's capitulation. There is no point in being not-the-conservatives if all they aspire to being is a bit less conservative.

Screw them both and vote lib dem in the next election. They're the only pro eu party and the local MPs are excellent. I liked Corbyn but he's shot himself in the foot by not providing a supportive frame work for his MPs and the vote of no confidence in him by people working closely with him is too big to be ignored. The other chap doesn't appear to have his morals but seems more competent at managing people. I don't think it matters, I think somehow we need the lib dems back Re the Eu it looks like Corbyn isn't flexible and is following rules rather than brains, which is bad, so Owen does look marginally better, if not as inspiring. Corbyn is definitely failing to lead an effective opposition. Whether he's be any better in power I don't know.

The more I see of Smith the less I like him. I can see nothing to suggest that the reasonably leftish tone he's currently taking is anything more than expediency to catch the prevailing mood of the party. I want to see a government based on social justice and that is simply not going to happen if the Labour Party is led by a sexist xenophobe privatisation lobbyist. The PLP's immediate and complete refusal to work with Corbyn is far more to blame for Labour's current problems than Corbyn's weaknesses. Yes I'd like to see Corbyn take a stronger line on the EU but I think Corbyn has a better chance of scuppering the worst excesses of Brexitism by strongly challenging the detail than Smith does by taking an all-or-nothing approach.

I'd just like to see Corbyn do *anything* strongly, instead of standing around like a wet weekend and not really doing much at all. That's not opposition, that's obstruction - to his own party as much as the government.

Until there's a leader the MPs can get behind (and I just wish they would get behind their leader, as they failed miserably to do so with Ed), Labour will be worse than useless as either opposition or party in general.

There was a comment somewhere when someone talked about a conflict between the PLP and the greater Labour party, and someone else said it's a four-way conflict - the leader, the PLP, the party+unions+registered supporters and the general electorate.

I am a habitual Lib Dem (and thereby disqualified from having a formal vote despite having a union affiliation) who occasionally tactically votes Labour. Reasons for me to vote Labour include - not letting the Tories in, not having a Tory-led coalition, having an effective opposition, etc. In terms of delivering those goods; Smith might do it, Corbyn won't. Conceivably, Corbyn might be able to lead a different PLP if he's able to get most of the current lot reselected at the next general, but that's quite a long way away - by May 2020 we could be out of the EU, and there's time to push through all sorts of other policies.

Of course, if you think that Smith is so lackluster that he's unable to do anything notable with the PLP, even if he can get them united behind him, then maybe that's not a consideration.

Put it like this: at the moment, Farron and the rest of the PLDP seem to be pretty happy with each other, but if Farron lost a vote of confidence of Lib Dem 2:6, I'd say he'd have to go, for manifestly being unable to do his job. Fortunately Farron does seem able to do his job, so this isn't an issue.

(I, err, might have voted Labour in the last general election. The polls suggested it was a lot closer than it really was, and I was worried about another coalition letting the Tories back in. If the polls had been accurate I'd have voted Lib Dem, largely on the strength of Julian Huppert. It was a very hard decision, one that was agonising to make, and one that I ended up regretting when the results became known.)

I find myself in an odd position on that one in that I got it down to a choice of two from, initially, three; I'd gone to the ballot box armed with a d12, rolled it, checked if I wanted a reroll (I didn't), voted... but now I honestly can't remember who I voted for.

'particularly if either candidate says or does something that addresses my concerns'- I may have accidentally disengaged myself here, but have either of them said anything very much?

I've read some reports of debates and the like in the Graun, but I don't think much of new substance has been said.

Corbyn vs Smith again

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