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posted by [identity profile] yrieithydd.livejournal.com at 03:29pm on 11/04/2005
I am not convinced that uncontrolled immigration would lead to a fast rise in the UK population. I'm not convinced that such vast numbers of people are desperate* to come here that reducing immigration controls would open the floodgates as it were. Also, I believe we have a falling birth rate and that there is an argument that we need immigrants to bolster the working population and pay to support all the pensioners there will be when the baby-boomers retire.

Secondly, I am also in favour of helping developing countries which might reduce some of the inequalities which make the UK such an ideal for many.

*Mmm, maybe my comment on [livejournal.com profile] atreic's crime post just now where I said -ance/-ence was my biggest bugbear should be emended to -a-/-e- as I had to check that one!
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posted by [identity profile] the-alchemist.livejournal.com at 03:37pm on 11/04/2005
Don't get me wrong, I do think we should allow in more immigrants than we currently do - it's just that I don't think it should be completely uncontrolled.

Why would someone have to be 'desperate' to move from one of the many countries where there is no NHS, no social security system and high unemployment to somewhere like the UK? I'd be on a plane the moment I could scrape my fare together.

Or are you advocating a system whereby immigrants are second class citizens with no rights to NHS treatment or social security? I'd much rather let a smaller number of people in and treat them properly once they're here.

I don't think it's a realistic aim to help all developing countries achieve an average standard of living even nearly equivalent to the UK one within the foreseeable future (though obviously it's a long term goal, and much can be done to reduce the inequalities in the mean time.)
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posted by [identity profile] yrieithydd.livejournal.com at 04:48pm on 11/04/2005
Why would someone have to be 'desperate' to move from one of the many countries where there is no NHS, no social security system and high unemployment to somewhere like the UK? I'd be on a plane the moment I could scrape my fare together.

Sorry, I was using 'desperate' rather laxly in my last comment. I was using it merely as a strongish qualifier and not particularly connected to despair, i.e. people are extremely keen.

I think you are in a minority though. Yes, the NHS, Social Security and high unemployment are attractive but I think that there are also many things which tie people to where they're from (not least family) and so whilst many people might talk about coming here, they might not actually go through with it if they got the opportunity. Equally, they might come and work here for a few years and then go back.

I am certainly not advocating treating immigrants as second class citizens.
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posted by [identity profile] the-alchemist.livejournal.com at 04:59pm on 11/04/2005
I'm sure I am in a minority. A tiny minority. However, if 0.01% of the 2.8 billion people living in poverty came to live here it would increase our population by almost 50%, which would clearly be unsustainable.

While many would stay put because of family ties, others would want to bring their family over, which would make things worse, not better.
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posted by [identity profile] ixwin.livejournal.com at 10:11pm on 11/04/2005
I've just done a quick google and failed to find any research or information on what percentage of people in poorer countries would choose to move to the west if they could.

I wonder if anyone's ever tried to find out? And how it varies between countries & continents.
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posted by [identity profile] the-alchemist.livejournal.com at 10:20pm on 11/04/2005
No - I haven't found anything either. It would be interesting.

But since a surprisingly high number are willing to seriously risk their lives getting here illegally, even though they won't be able to get a job or social security and will be in constant danger of being sent back, I think that if the journey was (almost) risk-free and they were assured of the same employment and benefit rights as you or I, then the numbers coming over would be overwhelming.

At least one person I know who lived in a developing country for a while had an old woman she scarcely knew begging her to marry her son (who she'd never even met) so that he could get British citizenship. And I've heard other similar anecdotes from other (non-anti-immigration) sources.
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