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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 02:51pm on 16/05/2006 under ,
I still have a wedding write-up to do, but I wanted to scribble this down before I forgot too much of it.

Today's discussion was (mostly) about the eucharist. We briefly talked about when the eucharist did and didn't "work", i.e. when has Christ promised to be present. That discussion moved fairly swiftly onto the question of receiving worthily or not. St Paul says "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation
to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.", and that you could not partake of communion if you have a grudge against your neighbour. Article 29 says "The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ; yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ: but rather, to their condemnation, do eat and drink the sign or Sacrament of so great a thing."

So, it is fairly clear that a Bad Person does not recieve salvation through receiving communion. But is that because they receive Christ in the sacrament who then damns them, or because they don't receive Christ when they eat the bread and wine?

Around the time of the Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church took the former position. To simplify a bit, this is because of a desire to assert the Real Presence - Christ is present in the consecrated elements, and nothing we do can take Him away from them again. They were concerned that the Protestant position meant that Jesus was simply responding to our faith, rather than imposing himself on us through the sacrament. The underlying concern, if you like, was the lordship of Jesus.

The Protestants said that it was the communicant's faith that meant that they could partake of Our Lord when receiving the sacrament - people without faith would be just eating bread and wine. They were concerned with the idea that sacraments could be seen to make god manipulatable - that God present in the bread and wine could be waved around and used by us. The underlying concern, if you like, was the lordship of Jesus.

One of the strengths of much Anglican theology on the subject is that it manages to hold these two ideas in tension - both are, in the end, concerned with the lordship of Jesus, and we can avoid running either view to the extreme. I think, actually, this may be partly why I'm a little uncomfortable with Benediction; whilst exposing the sacrament and meditating on its presence is valuable, and whilst Benediction itself can be a profound experience, I worry about that it looks very much like God is there to be waved around by us; the liturgy at that point appears almost to be using God, vulnerable in the sacraments, for our own ends.

An interesting and stimulating hour or so, even if it did have another one of those moments.
There are 10 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] mtbc100.livejournal.com at 02:52pm on 16/05/2006
The passages that you quote do rather suggest that unfaithfully gobbling the Eucharist is positively bad rather than merely not good.

Generally, that's the sort of detail I tend to find interesting to think about but not really of much operational value in understanding what Jesus wants from us.
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 03:39pm on 16/05/2006
Hmmm. Interesting, none of that occurred to me before.

Is it possible to repent of one's original problem (lack of faith or sin), but to not, or not be able to, repent for taking communion in that state? It would seem they'd normally go together, in which case there would be less practical difference.
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 03:45pm on 16/05/2006
One can repent for any sin. The only unforgivable sin, according to scripture, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 03:50pm on 16/05/2006
So it would seem likely that if I came to Jesus, I would repent for being generally impious before that, which would hopefully include any false communions, whether specifically a sin, or just disrespectful[1]. (Though under other circumstances I might both sin, and sin by hiding my first sin, and repent for the first, and not recognise the second immediately.)

[1] As it happens, I haven't, it'd be disrespectful :)
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 03:45pm on 16/05/2006
The "not controlling Jesus", yes, I can see that you'd rather think Jesus was *there*, though perhaps Bad People do consume his flesh but he doesn't choose to save them.

But, it only pushes it back as far as the person officiating the ceremony, doesn't it? Does Jesus always answer prayers for turning bread and wine into Him? Does it matter whom from, or if they're Bad? Can a bad priest give communion? Turn bread into Jesus and defile it?
 
posted by [identity profile] jy100.livejournal.com at 04:48pm on 16/05/2006
Does it matter whom from, or if they're Bad? Can a bad priest give communion?

Article XXVI says:
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil have chief authority in the Ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by his commission and authority, we may use their Ministry ... in receiving of the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished ...


 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 03:45pm on 16/05/2006
Aside: Aren't there protocol for polite disposal of dropped or excess eucharists? Maybe Jesus departs in a similar manner when brought into contact with a Bad Person.)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 03:46pm on 16/05/2006
Reverent Disposal, yes.
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 04:32pm on 16/05/2006
A mitre would suit you.
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 04:40pm on 16/05/2006
I'd rather be in the Mitre than wear one ;p

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