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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 11:45am on 10/08/2006 under ,
Apparantly, the security services have foiled a plot to blow up "up to 10" transatlantic flights leaving the UK at some point in the near future. Relatedly, they're now cancelling great numbers of flights into and out of the UK, and requiring people to travel with no hand luggage; the claim is that other cells might strike now worried they're about to be caught, too.[1]

In an entirely coincidental piece of timing, yesterday John Reid was going on about how we had to be prepared to sacrifice our hard-won freedoms to protect our freedoms[2]. It seems likely that today's events (and maybe the prosecution of the people arrested at some point) will be used to help frighten us into accepting ID cards, and other curbs on our civil liberties.

For reference, here are some numbers. 2,976 people died from the terrorist attack on September 11th, 2001[3], and 52 people were killed in the London bombings of July 7, 2005[4]. A Boeing 747-400 holds around 400 people[5], meaning that an upper limit on the expect casualties in this case (assuming complete success, and full planes) would be around 4000 people.

Those are quite large numbers, but let me try and put them in perspective. In 2005, 3,201 people were killed on the UK's roads, and 29,000 were seriously injured[6]. In 1995 (which seems to be the most recent stats available), over 120,000 people died as a result of smoking (that's about 1/5 of all deaths)[7].
The Irish troubles killed 3,523 people between July 1969 and the end of 2001[8].

I'm ignoring for purposes of argument, the enormous casualties of war and terrorism elsewhere in the world, particularly in the Middle East, because they're not related to the point I'm trying to make. In the UK, you are very unlikely to be killed as a result of terrorist action - a road traffic accident is more likely to kill you, to oversimplify a little. And yet it's terrorism that dominates the headlines, on an alarmingly regular basis. I'm not belittling the tragedy of people dying in terrorist attacks, nor saying that we should do nothing to try and stop them. I'd just like to see a sense of perspective restored.

Terrorism is not the greatest threat to British society - for the most part it just causes inconvenience and disruption. I'd argue that a greater threat is politicians using "the terrorist threat" to justify their own mad authoritarian schemes. You're either supporting them in their scramble to remove our ancient and hard-won civil liberties (habeas corpus anyone?), or you're opening the UK up to massive terrorist attacks. This article talks a lot of sense about how by abandoning our own freedoms because we're afraid of terrorists, we've given in to those terrorists. I'd go further and claim that politicians who use the excuse of terrorism to undermine our civil liberties are little better than the terrorists themselves.


[1]BBC article
[2]BBC article
[3]Wikipedia article
[4]Wikipedia article.
[5]Boeing website.
[6]DfT statistics
[7]Department of Heath Statistics
[8]Cain project, University of Ulster
There are 33 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] purpletigron.livejournal.com at 12:50pm on 10/08/2006
Indeed. Might I link to this?
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:52pm on 10/08/2006
Go ahead.
 
posted by [identity profile] mirabehn.livejournal.com at 01:08pm on 10/08/2006
Oh, well said. *applauds*

*adds to memories*
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 01:26pm on 10/08/2006
My favourite post today has been this one of senji's
 
posted by [identity profile] mr-ricarno.livejournal.com at 02:18pm on 10/08/2006
Amen! Preach it brother!

I still can't see an easy way to get my laptop to the States next Tuesday, though...

I'd just like to see a sense of perspective restored.

RESTORED?!? Did we ever have one in the media?
 
posted by [identity profile] angelofthenorth.livejournal.com at 02:33pm on 10/08/2006
I think I'd like a different agenda
 
posted by [identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.com at 10:20pm on 11/08/2006
My laptop survived being put in the hold luggage yesterday. I guess having a big chunky laptop bag helps.
 
posted by [identity profile] teleute.livejournal.com at 02:58pm on 10/08/2006
...did you ever see V for Vendetta?...
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 03:03pm on 10/08/2006
No.
 
posted by [identity profile] teleute.livejournal.com at 04:18pm on 10/08/2006
Ah. Watch it. It's pretty much based on what has happened a couple of decades after events of this nature. A worst case scenario of course (well, not as bad as everyone being dead from nuclear war) but a damn good film for all that. I saw it twice.
 
posted by [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com at 04:41pm on 10/08/2006
It's really annoying me. I don't feel frightened by terrorists, just irked that if the restrictions aren't lifted by September, I may have to cope with my luggage going to Murmansk. Since I'll be flying Ryanair, this is practially guaranteed. Also, the French are really quite upset if you put electrical luggage in the hold. But of course you've got to do that.
 
posted by [identity profile] shinypurplefish.livejournal.com at 05:25pm on 10/08/2006
(just a thought but falling debris from an airborne plan would kill a LOT of people, or if it were say flown into a building ala '911' the damage would be far greater)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 05:36pm on 10/08/2006
The Lockerbie disaster killed 11 people on the ground. So, yes, there is potential there, but it's not a huge risk.
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posted by [identity profile] pellegrina.livejournal.com at 06:12pm on 10/08/2006
Er, except that there are a lot more people in the immediate environs of Heathrow than of Lockerbie, if that's what they're after. The Schiphol disaster was worse than Lockerbie for dead on the ground (nearly 40 I think) but it was a cargo jet.

Very good post though!
 
posted by [identity profile] sonicdrift.livejournal.com at 09:40am on 11/08/2006
The BBC news said the plan had been to detonate them over the Atlantic, leaving minimal forensic evidence. Which surprised me as I'd have thought they'd be going for maximum carnage, but I suppose they might have wanted to conceal which explosives they used.

Good Post!
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 06:23pm on 11/08/2006
Could be they felt that the damage below was too difficult to obtain compared to the risk of the method being discovered and causing steps to be taken to prevent others by detecting components.
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 05:53pm on 10/08/2006
I think the Cato article you linked to capped it when the author mentioned Michael Moore and the interviewer, talking about the fact that being killed by the actions of terrorists is statistically unlikely to happen to each of us - but that individuals are really scared that it could happen.
I wonder if there is something odd in how we think about it, cars kill people - oh but that's accidents! Except they're caused by us or another driver doing something wrong or not doing something right. So it's fate (well almost). Thus people think "it might be me" or "how do you know when your number is up?" about terrorists (especially as these days their aims are rather more nebulous, and if they intend to die to it's much harder to negotiate them out of doing it).

Isn't it odd as well that I don't remember quite this much hysteria about the IRA, we were all cautioned to be alert - but no one mentioned ID cards.

Certainly though with driving as with terrorism you can cut the small statistical chances down by being alert to your surroundings and concentrating on what you're meant to be doing (especially if you're the driver). So the stiff upper lip should continue to live its life almost unchanged, the proviso being to be more alert.
 
posted by [identity profile] azekeil.livejournal.com at 06:02pm on 10/08/2006
Couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo.
 
posted by [identity profile] wellinghall.livejournal.com at 06:08pm on 10/08/2006
On the whole, an excellent article, Matthew. The only point I would really argue with is your last sentence.
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 09:55pm on 10/08/2006
Why so? Surely if the maniacs' aim is to make us do what they say we should where is the difference (on that level) between them and the governing buggers? All that's different are the means and the details of the aims.

I am suprised that I've yet to read any theory that terrorists are being funded by governments to disrupt things like this. After all if you're a government crony in the arms, armoured vehicle, or personal defence equipment industry wouldn't this be lining your pockets?
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posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 07:46pm on 10/08/2006
Good article. However, I have a few issues with some of its premises. Unfortunately, I don't at the moment have much time to give a response, or even read the references :-( and certainly not the time that the article deserves, but I will say this:

Whatever we do the terrorists win. If we do nothing then they blow lots of us up. If we do something then they've caused us to react.

Secondly, the calculations are based on just one terrorist act, that of blowing up ten airliners each with 400 people on board. If the goverment and security forces do nothing then the terrorists will blow up a further ten aircraft the following week, and the week after, and the week after that, etc.

So even on the conservative estimate of 4000 people per week that is just over 200,000 people in one year. I think that is quite a significant proportion of those who travel across the Atlantic (which is where the current specific threat is supposed to be) compared with the number of people who use the roads vs those who are killed on the roads each year.


By the way, V for Vendetta is a brilliant film. It is now out on DVD, buy a copy. It is my film of the year; far, far better than Superman Returns or X3, or even Pirates of the Carribean: Deadman's Chest.
 
posted by [identity profile] shaunotd.livejournal.com at 08:33pm on 10/08/2006
Secondly, the calculations are based on just one terrorist act, that of blowing up ten airliners each with 400 people on board.

That's because this represents the kind of major terrorist attack that takes a great deal of time and coordination to set up. It's not the kind of thing that could be done week after week after week - especially not with many of the major players having just been nicked.

Sorry, but your calculations are way off.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 08:46pm on 10/08/2006
Not the way its being reported as far as I can tell. Explosives made from the sorts of things most people have in their bathroom cabinets. The sorts of things we're being told about just about anybody who wanted to could (past tense) take on to a plane.

[livejournal.com profile] emperor's post is implying that we don't do anything to counter the threat; instead that we just let the terrorists do their thing. Therefore, they would keep blowing up airplanes.

So by simple maths: 200,000 people per year. QED.

 
posted by [identity profile] shaunotd.livejournal.com at 09:07pm on 10/08/2006
Explosives made from the sorts of things most people have in their bathroom cabinets."

First I've heard of it. Materials that can be disguiused as like innoccuous substances that you might normally take in your hand luggage, but are nothing of the kind, yes... common cleaning products & toiletries, no.

[livejournal.com profile] emperor's post is implying that we don't do anything to counter the threat; instead that we just let the terrorists do their thing.

No it isn't - I quote: "I'm not belittling the tragedy of people dying in terrorist attacks, nor saying that we should do nothing to try and stop them.".

There's a difference between the kind of (largely) effective covert counter-terrorist operations that our security services have been carrying out out for decades now, and the rampant scaremongering that our current government is promoting.
 
posted by [identity profile] shaunotd.livejournal.com at 09:37pm on 10/08/2006
Clearly it's too late in the evening for me to be typing accurately...but you get the idea... 8-/
 
posted by [identity profile] pjc50.livejournal.com at 10:59pm on 10/08/2006
So you're saying that the suicide bombers are going to come back next week and do it again? "If the goverment and security forces do nothing then the terrorists will blow up a further ten aircraft the following week" is not true because it won't be the same terrorists!

Personally my conservative estimate is zero, based on the zero recent attacks of this nature on aircraft. Note, for example, that outside of the US people are not required to have their shoes scanned, so we're wide open to the Richard Reid attack. And yet planes are not falling out of the sky due to exploding shoes.

Nor is it a dichotomy between doing something and doing nothing. The article is all about a proportional reponse; we should look at the risk of terrorism in the light of all the other risks we face, and take simple and proportionate measures to reduce the risk.

The difference is between treating terrorism as part of the risk of crime and disaster in the normal way, and treating it as some special thing which justifies throwing all normal concepts of justice and restraint out of the window.
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 06:24pm on 11/08/2006
Actually I have had my shoes checked at Franfurt.
 
posted by [identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.com at 10:13pm on 11/08/2006
outside of the US people were not required to have their shoes scanned, so we were wide open to the Richard Reid attack.

Fixed.
 
posted by [identity profile] symbolia.livejournal.com at 07:54pm on 10/08/2006
Terrorism is not the greatest threat to British society - for the most part it just causes inconvenience and disruption. I'd argue that a greater threat is politicians using "the terrorist threat" to justify their own mad authoritarian schemes.

agreed.
 
posted by [identity profile] emarkienna.livejournal.com at 09:17pm on 10/08/2006
It's a win-win situation for the Government - if a terrorist attack happens, then we need more restrictions on our freedoms. If a terrorist attack plan is foiled (or even if none happen at all), it's proof that the previous restrictions on our freedoms were needed, and we'd better have further restrictions just in case.
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 09:48pm on 10/08/2006
Couldn't agree more with the cynical view on government.
 
posted by [identity profile] kaet.livejournal.com at 10:28pm on 10/08/2006
And yet it's terrorism that dominates the headlines, on an alarmingly regular basis

And lj?
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 10:09am on 11/08/2006
That too, yes.

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