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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 09:29am on 18/12/2008 under ,
What car-drivers who shout at me about cycle paths are trying to achieve. This morning's was pretty typical. As he overtook (as part of a group, who had been delayed more by a learner making a hash of pulling off at the lights), he shouted "...fucking cycle path", and made some sort of gesture. The manner of these imprecations suggests that "there's a shared-use off-road cycle path here; this cyclist obviously doesn't know about it, so I'll let him know to speed his journey" is not the primary motivation - and in any case, at commuter o'clock, the cyclists are mostly regulars who will be well aware of the path in question. Do these drivers really think that they're going to persuade me by force of their argument that I'd be better off on the cycle-path?[2] I doubt it; similarly, they don't seem interested in stopping for a chat on the relative merits of cycling on the road or the shared-use path (the variation "what's wrong with the cycle path" seems largely rhetorical).

Which leaves me with the options that they're trying to intimidate the pesky cyclists off their roads, or just want to make the cyclists' morning miserable. Why does anyone think this is a reasonable way to behave?[1] Cyclists are vulnerable road-users, and overly-aggressive driving can be quite alarming.

Some mornings I'm moved to attempt a pithy response, although I've yet to find a good one. "On yer bike" is the currently-preferred one, as "roads are for bikes too" lacks punch. [livejournal.com profile] brrm suggests "fucking planet", and I have sometimes resorted to suggesting by gesture that the driver concerned enjoys their own company a little too much (usually only for drivers that have overtaken dangerously whilst hurling abuse).

[1] I'm aware of road-rage, yes.
[2] For the record, cycling on the road is entirely legal, and what patchy research there is suggests that shared-use paths are more hazardous for both cyclists and pedestrians than cycling on the road
There are 37 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 10:01am on 18/12/2008
As a car driver there have been occasions where I've been annoyed that a number of cyclists have been cycling on the road when there was a shared-use path along side the road. However, the situation while superficially similar to the one you describe was fundamentally different.

Firstly, it was a single carriage way road with the national speed limit and a high volume of traffic goes in both directions. Secondly, the shared-use path was practically never used by pedestrians, in fact I can't remember seeing a single instance of it being used by a pedestrian; also there weren't any driveways or other side-roads that interrupted it. Thirdly, there were a number of cyclists who insisted on riding in such a way that it was both difficult and dangerous to overtake them: either two-abreast or several of them close together. There were a number of other cyclists who did use the provided shared-use path. Interestingly, those who insisted on using the road were the "professional" cyclists.

All that said there is absolutely no excuse for being rude to fellow road users.
 
posted by [identity profile] arnhem.livejournal.com at 10:21am on 18/12/2008
I sometimes have to take a deep breath on single carriage way roads with the national speed limit, on the occasions when I find myself behind an HGV whose driver has remembered that he's not supposed to go above 40mph.

It's a very useful skill to learn, as a driver, to relax and not let this make you feel aggressive.

I find it helps to calculate how few minutes this slows me down, even over quite long stretches of road.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 10:32am on 18/12/2008
Indeed so.

an HGV whose driver has remembered that he's not supposed to go above 40mph

Now that's a rare beast! I can't remember when I last saw one of those.
 
posted by [identity profile] arnhem.livejournal.com at 10:36am on 18/12/2008
So is it significantly more difficult to take the deep breath when it's a group of cyclists rather than an HGV?
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 11:27am on 18/12/2008
It makes no difference whether it's an HGV or a group of cyclists. The annoyance with the cyclists is in the example I cited is they had a much safer alternative, but chose not to take it. They might have had a very good reason for their decision, but it wasn't obvious to me (or I suspect anyone else).

I think I need to make the observation that at no time was I rude to the cyclists I referred to. Nor did I overtake them dangerously, or in an intimidating way. All I did was think (paraphrasing) "oh bugger it's those cyclists again".
lnr: Halloween 2023 (Default)
posted by [personal profile] lnr at 02:23pm on 18/12/2008
I think the problem is that even where an off-road facility is no more dangerous than the road along its length there's still the problem of joining and leaving it at each end. Those sort of junctions are nearly always difficult and dangerous, because there are so many different directions a cyclist has to look, and because drivers aren't necessarily expecting them.

And certainly I don't cycle as fast on a raised pavement as I do on the road, even in the absence of any driveways, turnings or other users. Plus as others have said the surface is often not as well-maintained, and may be icy or muddy, since they're not swept clean by the action of car tyres and they're not usually gritted.

I don't expect drivers to always be aware of all these considerations, but if their only reaction to annoyance is as mild as yours then that's fair enough. Often you'll find drivers shouting and driving in an intimidating manner because they've decided you should be on the path, and I hate that, as often it's the only thing which stops the road being safe to cycle on.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 02:47pm on 18/12/2008
Good point. I must say that I hadn't considered the joining / leaving aspect. I think the one I have in mind is at one end no more dangerous than the road junction itself: flat open area with a roundabout. The cycleway crosses the road at that junction. The other end is at a roundabout too, but I can't remember the road / cycleway junction: it's about four years since I drove that way.

My annoyance at that type of thing is normally restricted to grumbling in the car or ranting afterwards. There is utterly no point in shouting at the cyclist, however, satisfying it might feel at the time. And as for driving in an intimidating manner, that's illegal.
 
posted by [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com at 04:25pm on 18/12/2008
I find cycleways that dump you back on the road at a roundabout incredibly dangerous, and will usually get off my bike and walk. Car-drivers often don't expect you at roundabouts anyway, and are less likely to notice you when a) they haven't seen any bikes on the road ('cos they're all on the cycleway) and b) they're coming from a direction where they don't expect road traffic to come from. So I'll either walk, or use the road the whole way, so that car drivers stand some chance of noticing my existance at the roundabout.
 
posted by [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com at 06:39pm on 18/12/2008
You think it's much safer. They obviously don't (and, assuming this is anywhere in Britain, I think they're overwhelmingly likely to be right; I've ridden everywhere in Britain and I have never seen a roadside farcility fit for purpose). Who actually has pertinent experience?

Riding close together is an effective way for a group to go faster; riding two abreast is an effective way to stop people squeezing past you dangerously.
 
posted by [identity profile] tamsinj.livejournal.com at 10:37am on 18/12/2008
"difficult or dangerous to overtake" .. hmm. i have a problem with car drivers on my commute who think that if i'm in the gutter, passing close is fine - no matter what's comming.. but actually having to plan an execute an overtaking maneuver is unacceptable.

this is particularly annoying on the narrow road out of the village which is barely wide enough for two cars - no matter where i cycle, they need to overtake .. but i get beeped at if i'm not in the gutter.

it's a very wide road where it's safe to pass a cyclist without crossing the central line, particularly at speed.
 
posted by [identity profile] naath.livejournal.com at 11:23am on 18/12/2008
As a cyclist who has cycled on such roads (single carriageway, notional 60mph limit)... it is much much safer to be "impossible to overtake" than to be in a situation where overtaking is *possible* but *dangerous* and often there is not a road position that would allow overtaking to be *safe*.

I do feel some sympathy for drivers who have to put up with going up hill at <10mph, but not very *much* because after all *I* am having to put up with going up the hill at <10mph *and* I'm doing hard work *and* car drivers are in their nice heated/air-conned metal boxes whilst I'm in the nasty weather... (on such journeys I tend to try to pull over and stop if I spot a large queue forming behind me but I view that as a courtesy and not something drivers ought to expect).

Personally I would never dream of driving on such a road at 60mph (although I don't drive much I do have a licence and have driven on such roads) whatever the speed limit says. I remember being very irritated as a driver by other drivers who thought they could take such roads at 60 and objected to waiting behind me whilst I did 40.

The shared-use path is invariably (for many reasons) slower than cycling on the road. The "professional" cyclists tend to want to go rather faster than your average "out for a bit of air" cyclist.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 11:46am on 18/12/2008
it is much much safer to be "impossible to overtake" than to be in a situation where overtaking is *possible* but *dangerous*

I quite agree.

going up hill

The example I cited was pretty much flat, though I didn't mention it.

I tend to try to pull over and stop if I spot a large queue forming behind me but I view that as a courtesy and not something drivers ought to expect

Actually, there is a requirement not to impede the flow of traffic. I understand that there has been a change to the law where if there is a queue of eight or more vehicles behind you who wish and could go faster then you must allow them to pass at the earliest opportunity.

I did read a report of somebody on the A1 somewhere north of Newcastle who was booked by the police for impeding the free flow of traffic on a single carriageway stretch who was travelling at 60MPH because they were actively preventing other vehicles from passing them. Personally I think that was rather excessive.


I don't disagree about the shared path usually being slower, but the one I cited had exactly the same interruptions as the road did. At the time I was travelling everybody was commuting, both the car drivers and the cyclists, both pro and am. I have seen examples of pro-cyclists using that shared path at least as quickly as those on the roads.

If you want to look at the stretch of road / shared path I'm talking about it is the A449 at the north of Telford between Shawbirch and Hortonwood.
 
posted by [identity profile] naath.livejournal.com at 11:50am on 18/12/2008
allow them to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Ah, but what counts as the "earliest opportunity" on a bike? Am I required to get muddy feet? or may I wait until there is a good place to stand off the road for instance. Also when going up hill stopping (well, starting again) is pain :-)

I've not met that bit of road; all the cycle facilities 'round here are really crappy so my experience is squewed I guess.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 12:00pm on 18/12/2008
I've only really thought about it in terms of slow lorries or tractors, not cyclists. I guess it would be somewhere you could get off the road safely. I don't think that having to get muddy feet is reasonable.


Telford did spend quite a lot of money putting lots of cycleways around the town. One could get from most places to most other places by bike. I never ended up getting a bike (for various reasons) so I never tested them, but they were supposed to be good.
 
posted by [identity profile] naath.livejournal.com at 12:02pm on 18/12/2008
Tractors have more obviously "stopping places" of course :-)

Cambridge has expensive cycle farcilities; almost none of them are any good, especially for a fast cyclist and especially in poor weather and/or when there are fallen leaves around.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 12:24pm on 18/12/2008
Mmm, yes. The real problem is that most of our towns and cities don't really work for either motorised or peddled modes of transport. Removing all the cars and vans and lorries from the centre of a town tends not to work: deliveries still need to be made, people who can't get around without motorised transport have certain rights, etc. etc. The world is broken. :-(
 
posted by [identity profile] gareth-rees.livejournal.com at 11:42am on 18/12/2008
As a car driver there have been occasions where I've been annoyed

There's your trouble. When operating heavy machinery, stay calm!
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 11:48am on 18/12/2008
Surprising as it may be it is quite possible to be annoyed and calm at the same time. As a car driver it is something that one learns to do.
 
posted by [identity profile] woodpijn.livejournal.com at 10:11am on 18/12/2008
Odds are the drivers don't know the research that suggests cyclists are safer on the road, and perhaps don't even know cyclists are allowed on the road when there's a cycle path. From their POV, your actions must feel very dog-in-the-manger. I know I get annoyed when I'm cycling and there are pedestrians doddering along slowly in the (non-shared) cycle path; I don't yell expletives but I do use the bell or horn at them and glare.
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posted by [personal profile] simont at 10:36am on 18/12/2008
Odds are the drivers don't know the research that suggests cyclists are safer on the road

*nods* This. With a side order, I'd guess, of assumption that if the people who designed the road built a path specifically marked for cycles then surely that must be where cyclists were intended to be, and surely (assuming the road designers thought everything through carefully as is their job) there's a reason for that.

I can't help but feel some sympathy. If there's a specifically marked cycle path which it turns out that it's better if cyclists don't use, I find it hard to blame everyday road-users for finding that state of affairs unexpected, counterintuitive and difficult to believe. Surely the primary blame should lie with whoever built a cycle path which was more dangerous than not using it, or with whoever hasn't come and changed the road markings after the research showed they were a bad idea after all? (Assuming, that is, that the research is unambiguous and generally accepted.) It doesn't excuse the rudeness, of course, but it makes it easy to understand the frustration which gives rise to the rudeness.

As for what the drivers are trying to achieve, I would naturally assume that they're primarily giving vent to that frustration, and perhaps also hoping that the combined social opprobrium of their collective yelling might persuade you to do what they see as the right thing. (You might see that as the same as "intimidate the pesky cyclists off their roads", but I think I'd reserve "intimidate" for intent to make you feel physically threatened, whereas I'd guess that at least some of them merely intend to make you feel disapproved of, and it's just that in this situation that has to be done at shouting volume.)
 
posted by [identity profile] beckyc.livejournal.com at 10:50am on 18/12/2008
(Assuming, that is, that the research is unambiguous and generally accepted.)

That's a good joke :-).

I do have some sympathy for anyone trying to do research, because how would they know what proportion of accidents were never reported? Even serious injuries*, which would affect the KSI statistics and really *ought* to be reported.

*Which don't actually need to be that serious to count as a KSI, e.g. a cracked rib or broken collarbone. But still bad enough that the last thing you want to do is to faff around reporting it :-).
 
posted by [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com at 04:28pm on 18/12/2008
I don't know what the statistics are like (except for cyclists being swiped by HGVs at roundabouts/junctions, which happens quite a lot in fatalities); however, a lot of this is about perception, and whether cyclists perceive that they're safer doing such and such, or impeded by the poor quality of cycle paths. And their perception is what's important to getting them to use the 'facilities'.
 
posted by [identity profile] sesquipedality.livejournal.com at 07:54pm on 18/12/2008
Consider that shared use cycle paths are, unsurprisingly, on the pavement. The roads they are on are usually long at have many roads coming off them. Drivers turning onto the road expect traffic to be coming down the road itself - they look out for it when approaching the road, as they are aware oncoming traffic has the right of way.

Cyclists on a shared use path do not have the right of way. They therefore need to concentrate more on traffic when approaching side roads. Trying to pay attention to pedestrians, other cyclists, and vehicle traffic with right of way is just too many things to look out for at once, and vehicle traffic furthermore does not expect traffic from the cycle paths.

It's not science, but it does make practical sense.
 
posted by [identity profile] shadowphiar.livejournal.com at 10:36am on 18/12/2008
"use the Park-n-Ride..."


 
posted by [identity profile] wellinghall.livejournal.com at 10:41am on 18/12/2008
I knew that using a pedestrian / cycle path was more dangerous for pedestrians, but I hadn't seen any figures suggesting it was more dangerous for cyclists. (I'm not arguing with you, BTW; and it is some time since I was an active cyclist.)

I have seen a suggestion of giving the car a sharp whack on the roof as it / you go by, which is meant be loud enough to annoy the driver without damaging the car.
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 11:00am on 18/12/2008
The dangers of such paths (beyond collisions with pedestrians) include: poor surfaces that aren't gritted (the ones here ice regularly, and are currently covered in very slippery leaf mulch), drive-ways, and side-roads (where visibility is poor, and car-drivers tend not to expect cyclists).

There also much slower (because you have to slow down for all of the above), but maybe car drivers think that's not important.

I only ever hit cars if I think they've really not seen me and are about to side-swipe me - otherwise it's too dangerous, I think.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 11:54am on 18/12/2008
I did once kick a taxi which attempted to run me down while I was on a zebra crossing on a side ride to Tottenham Court Road. I dented his rear wing.

On another occasion I whacked the rear side window of a car which jumped the lights on a pedestrian crossing while I was still on the side of the road.
 
posted by [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_nicolai_/ at 01:33pm on 18/12/2008
I can confirm that some Leyland vans have plastic windows, because after one clipped my shoulder with his wing mirror while overtaking me, I stopped at the next lights, grabbed the mirror, and hit the glass as hard as I could to get his attention to my profanity. The "glass" bent inwards quite gratifyingly and he looked scared.
Not the most measured, thoughtful and communicative response I could have made, but I was quite upset and less practiced in vengeance then. These days I tend to write down van registration marks on my hand and report them later to authorities or employers; revenge is a dish best served cold by someone in uniform.
 
posted by [identity profile] arnhem.livejournal.com at 09:28pm on 18/12/2008
a sharp whack

I'd not recommend this to anyone who isn't reasonably confident of their ability to handle situations in which a driver goes completely psycho apeshit at them.


 
posted by [identity profile] randomchris.livejournal.com at 11:48am on 18/12/2008
I find my middle finger to be the best response to such situations :)
 
posted by [identity profile] the-marquis.livejournal.com at 12:25pm on 18/12/2008
Middle-finger used to be my response or the "you are a hand shagger" gesture.

These days, if cycling (rare for me now :( ) it might be the following: it's a mouthful but "Section 5 public Order Act" (unless its section 4 - one of them anyway and the sod isn't likely going to know) is pithy I think its to do with causing fear, alarm, or distress, in other people.
 
I feel your pain.

That was rhetorical, but I realise that in actual fact, I do exactly the same thing as you describe under the right circumstances, and it's probably worth writing out when that seems to be.

Dr Science: ...aaaaaand now! Analogy time with doctor science!
Audience: Yaaaaay!

Dr S: Imagine you have a friend, and whenever you go somewhere together, he always climbs in the window instead of the door. When you ask him, he says doors are unhealthy and eventually lead to aggragroititis.

You're annoyed at this, and every time say "Just use the door!" In fact, you know perfectly well why he doesn't, but because that reason was so unconvincing to you, and because even taking it the slightest bit seriously is a tremendous inconvenience to you, you just keep "forgetting" it, and then his autorefenestration always seems like a bizarre one-off aberration that he picked on that morning solely to annoy you.

So in this analogy, if I'm driving, I would always forget the reasons cyclists might be in the road, and treat each instance as if they were just doing something bizarre and dangerous that's so obviously wrong pointing it out in any way ought to be enough. But of course, the reason I don't know might be because (a) I seriously thought about it, and couldn't find any reason for cyclists to use the road (b) it's fairly obvious, but I'm driving to work, not thinking, so I didn't bother to look to see if the cycleway actually WAS usable (c) it's been pointed out to me repeatedly why cyclists might use the road, but because I wasn't convinced at the time, I always "forget" to take it into account when judging cyclists' actions.
 
posted by [identity profile] sashajwolf.livejournal.com at 01:45pm on 18/12/2008
Thank you for not using the shared path. As a pedestrian with a mild traffic phobia, I get quite frightened and panicky when I find myself sharing paths or (worse) pavements with cyclists.
 
posted by [identity profile] romancinger.livejournal.com at 02:56pm on 18/12/2008
I wasn't aware that there are now paths which are supposed to be shared by cyclists and pedestrians. Whose crack-brained idea was that??

As for your response to mouthy car-drivers, why don't you make a placard to wear that explains your position? (It would take a bit of working out to do so in few enough words, but I'm sure you could do so...)
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 04:15pm on 18/12/2008
In my experience most of them are like that now, and have been for years. And yes, it is crack-brained!
 
posted by [identity profile] yrieithydd.livejournal.com at 10:42pm on 18/12/2008
What's more according to the Cardiff Council Cycle Map, even in the case of split paths pedestrians aren't committing an offence if they walk on the cycle side.

I vary considerably as to whether or not I use cycle paths. Sometimes according to how I'm feeling (like on my old route to work I'd use the path when I was tired and not up to quick cycling) but more generally on how useful the path is. My current route to work includes quite a lot of split paths, one stretch along a dual carriageway which is up and down (it feels like a bridge but it doesn't seem to go over anything) with roundabouts at both ends which connects to an off road path I use in the morning. I can go at speed on this path though I do have to mind read at the roundabouts as most cars don't understand signalling. However, in the evening I tend to chose the road route not the off road path at which point I do the first roundabout on road because that's easier than the mind read, but then onto the path for the uphill stretch and left turn at the end (which could be better designed). At the end of my route I use the split path because it avoids 3 sets of traffic lights so my speed is better. Similarly in the evening, I use the path to get back as it avoids 4 sets of lights one of which takes an age to change and quite a bit of lateral movement (path is on the right in that direction).

In Cambridge, I use the split path from Trumpington to Cambridge (and bus lane back) but stay on road on Milton Road (except when my lights were failing). I had the interesting experience one Sunday morning of a posse of serious looking cyclists passing the end of Ansty Way as I turned out of it (so they were ahead). They stayed on road (partly I suspect as there were 4 of them) but I in fact overtook them because of the traffic lights. I can pelt down that path and there's only a couple of junctions and they're very minor. Milton Road otoh is a nightmare because there are so many side streets and the surface isn't nice. Also, the traffic is such that often you can be doing about traffic speed.
 
posted by [identity profile] sonicdrift.livejournal.com at 06:23pm on 20/12/2008
If you use the shared use cycle paths you just get a load of pedestrians shouting abuse at you to get on the road. Or, as i had the other week, blocking your path and trying to insist you cycle down the on road cycle path in the wrong direction.

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