While I agree with pretty much everything you've written here, I feel the need to observe that there are also a lot of very good drivers who do give other (non-car etc.) road users suitable space while overtaking, as well a not insignificant number of poor cyclics, motorcyclics and horse riders.
Bad cyclists are less likely, I suspect, to kill people, though.
Agreed, at least in a simple collision between themselves and somebody else. But it doesn't stop them causing a situation where somebody has to make an avoiding maneuver which endangers a third party.
This (cyclists can make someone else have to make a dangerous manoeuvre) is a very common assertion made during debates such as these.
However, in twenty years of driving (and cycling and walking and running) in a town that's notorious for having an awful lot of cyclists of a less than perfect kind (many thousands of students few of whom think much about personal mortality, many of whom are in a hurry, and many of whom are not particularly concerned with reactionary ruled-based systems), I've yet to see a case where that happened.
So that alone would tend to make me discount the assertion.
But I'd take it further than that - there's an awful lot you can do as a driver to minimise the impact of the unexpected.
Usually if you're forced into a dangerous manoeuvre by someone else's actions, it's because you were driving in a manner that didn't leave sufficient margin for error. Exceptions to this are as far as I can tell rare to the point of practical non-existence.
I don't disagree with your observation. However it does presuppose that everyone who is using the road (with the exception of one person or persons who happen to be cycling) is doing so perfectly.
I think I also need to point out that my comment isn't restricted to cyclists; thus to reword your statement: any road user can make someone else have to make a dangerous manoeuvre. Also I should point out that your paraphrasing of what I wrote doesn't fully reflect my intended meaning.
I think we need to accept that most road users (yourself and myself) included could use the road better and with more consideration for others. (And I think this is the main point that emperor is making in this post.)
The point I'm making is that not all car drivers are evil, just as not all cyclists are evil.
We also need to accept that everyone makes mistakes. Everyone at some time fails to see somebody else on (or about to be on) the road. I've done it myself; I've seen lots of other people do it, in all manner of vehicles as well as on foot. And I'm sure that you've done it too.
Something else that needs to be considered when talking about margin for error is the the knock-on effect further back down the road where my extra space and the extra space for the car in front of me and the one in front of that, etc. To give an example of what I'm thinking of, on my way home I travel about a mile from a motorway junction along a two lane dual carriage way to a roundabout. The volume of traffic is such that for a short space of time (1/4 to 1/2 hour) backs up to (but not onto) the motorway slip lanes. I don't know how many vehicles are on that mile of road, but if every one of them took an extra yard it would be quite a few extra yards of traffic queue. On separate occasions I've experienced the problems that happen when the traffic attempting to leave the motorway can't do so because the slip lane is backed up from a blockage. Luckily I haven't seen the accidents that have occurred in those queues, but I know that they have happened. I think that if we can avoid such queues from occurring then it probably increases the overall safety in the area. If that means that the extra yard that everyone would use in an ideal world doesn't get used then regrettably that is probably the optimum in a not ideal situation.
Yes, we as car drivers need to do lots of stuff to minimise the impact of the unexpected, but to be successful it depends on other people trying to do the same in the general area. Any road user who believes that they've never made a mistake on the road is seriously deluding themselves to the extent of being dangerous.
As I said, I live and drive in a city that's crammed full of utterly deranged cyclists. Crass stupidity on the part of cyclists is not at all an unknown for me. I stand by what I said.
When I'm cycling, drivers' crass stupidity will kill me if I'm not rather defensive in predicting its possibility. The little things like assuming I'm not moving so they can complete their overtaking manoeuvre with a left-turn through me.
The trait of predicting the possibility of other people doing crassly stupid things, is something I see much less often than I'd like in drivers, particularly those who drive faster than their current sight-lines can justify, assuming that the speed limit signs will magically tell them what's safe.
This is probably a consequence of the fact that many drivers don't have a particularly strong sense that their lack of care will kill them.
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Agreed, at least in a simple collision between themselves and somebody else. But it doesn't stop them causing a situation where somebody has to make an avoiding maneuver which endangers a third party.
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However, in twenty years of driving (and cycling and walking and running) in a town that's notorious for having an awful lot of cyclists of a less than perfect kind (many thousands of students few of whom think much about personal mortality, many of whom are in a hurry, and many of whom are not particularly concerned with reactionary ruled-based systems), I've yet to see a case where that happened.
So that alone would tend to make me discount the assertion.
But I'd take it further than that - there's an awful lot you can do as a driver to minimise the impact of the unexpected.
Usually if you're forced into a dangerous manoeuvre by someone else's actions, it's because you were driving in a manner that didn't leave sufficient margin for error. Exceptions to this are as far as I can tell rare to the point of practical non-existence.
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I think I also need to point out that my comment isn't restricted to cyclists; thus to reword your statement: . Also I should point out that your paraphrasing of what I wrote doesn't fully reflect my intended meaning.
I think we need to accept that most road users (yourself and myself) included could use the road better and with more consideration for others. (And I think this is the main point that
The point I'm making is that not all car drivers are evil, just as not all cyclists are evil.
We also need to accept that everyone makes mistakes. Everyone at some time fails to see somebody else on (or about to be on) the road. I've done it myself; I've seen lots of other people do it, in all manner of vehicles as well as on foot. And I'm sure that you've done it too.
Something else that needs to be considered when talking about margin for error is the the knock-on effect further back down the road where my extra space and the extra space for the car in front of me and the one in front of that, etc. To give an example of what I'm thinking of, on my way home I travel about a mile from a motorway junction along a two lane dual carriage way to a roundabout. The volume of traffic is such that for a short space of time (1/4 to 1/2 hour) backs up to (but not onto) the motorway slip lanes. I don't know how many vehicles are on that mile of road, but if every one of them took an extra yard it would be quite a few extra yards of traffic queue. On separate occasions I've experienced the problems that happen when the traffic attempting to leave the motorway can't do so because the slip lane is backed up from a blockage. Luckily I haven't seen the accidents that have occurred in those queues, but I know that they have happened. I think that if we can avoid such queues from occurring then it probably increases the overall safety in the area. If that means that the extra yard that everyone would use in an ideal world doesn't get used then regrettably that is probably the optimum in a not ideal situation.
Yes, we as car drivers need to do lots of stuff , but to be successful it depends on other people trying to do the same in the general area. Any road user who believes that they've never made a mistake on the road is seriously deluding themselves to the extent of being dangerous.
(no subject)
When I'm cycling, drivers' crass stupidity will kill me if I'm not rather defensive in predicting its possibility. The little things like assuming I'm not moving so they can complete their overtaking manoeuvre with a left-turn through me.
The trait of predicting the possibility of other people doing crassly stupid things, is something I see much less often than I'd like in drivers, particularly those who drive faster than their current sight-lines can justify, assuming that the speed limit signs will magically tell them what's safe.
This is probably a consequence of the fact that many drivers don't have a particularly strong sense that their lack of care will kill them.