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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 05:21pm on 11/11/2009 under ,
I know drugs policy has been in the news a lot recently, and possibly there's a whole other post on scientific advice to government. Nonetheless, I have been of the opinion for a while that prohibition isn't the answer to "the drugs problem", despite having never partaken myself.

This short rant seems to cover quite a bit of the ground pretty well.
There are 15 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] malaheed.livejournal.com at 05:31pm on 11/11/2009
Well the 18th amendment in the US was no a great success.
 
posted by [identity profile] rustica.livejournal.com at 05:45pm on 11/11/2009
I agree with that article 100%. Thank you for linking.
gerald_duck: (dcuk)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 08:06pm on 11/11/2009
Yup; I'd agree with that article.

Then again, I'm clearly on the science-and-facts side of the policy debate. When I suspected Professor Nutt might have over-egged the pudding with his claim about ecstasy versus horse-riding my immediate reaction was to wonder how large a dose of ecstasy was safer than how much horse-riding for what demographic and where the evidence was. (-8

This article, by contrast, made my blood boil. It might even be actionable libel against almost every individual scientist in the country. Hmm…
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 12:42pm on 12/11/2009
I particularly noticed "The trouble with a 'scientific' argument, of course, is that it is not made in the real world, but in a laboratory by an unimaginative academic relying solely on empirical facts." It manages to make "making decisions based on evidence" a bad thing.

Also, where the author rushes in and quickly disclaims "Oh no, I'm not blaming the holocaust on British scientists. I'm just saying that it's the same sort of thing. But nowhere near as bad, of course!"
gerald_duck: (unimpressed)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 02:23pm on 12/11/2009
The "unimaginative" also denigrates the entire process of forming hypotheses and designing experiments. They seem to think scientists spend their entire time methodically performing existing experiments.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 12:54pm on 12/11/2009
You can't libel a class, only an individual.

S.
gerald_duck: (frontal)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 02:27pm on 12/11/2009
Really? Even if you say "every X is a Y" rather than just "Xes are (in general) Y"?

Where is the line drawn? Can I libel:

  • Daily Mail journalists
  • Daily Mail journalists with "A" "N" and "W" in their initials
  • "people like A.N. Wilson"
  • "A.N. Wilson and his ilk"
  • "A.N. Wilson, Harold Shipman and Robert Mugabe"
…?
 
posted by (anonymous) at 03:52pm on 12/11/2009
Really. You have to libel a specific, identifiable (not necessarily named) individual or individuals (who can then sue you).

If you make it plain who you are talking about but then claim in court that you never specifically used their name, just their initials, the judge will rightly give you short shrift.

S.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 08:33pm on 11/11/2009
He makes a convincing argument; based on what he writes I agree with him. I just don't have all the facts to see a balanced picture.

Returning more specifically to the Nutt issue; while he might well be right that ecstasy is less damaging than alcohol, that is only so in isolation and while prohibition remains. The problem with ecstasy is that it is a way in to harder drugs, and alcohol pretty much isn't. That may well be a further argument against prohibition.
 
posted by [identity profile] lavendersparkle.livejournal.com at 11:47pm on 11/11/2009
Is ecstasy really more of a way in to harder drugs than alcohol is?

There's the argument that ecstasy consumption gets you into contact with dealers which gets you into harder stuff but a) this is a product of prohibition and b) from the edges of this world I've had contact with, the kind of people end users buy ecstasy from aren't going to be handling much harder stuff. I'd guess cannabis, ecstasy and amphetamine would be their general stock.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 12:02am on 12/11/2009
So I'm given to understand. I've never had anything to do with drugs, bar knowing some people who smoke(d) cannabis.

What I was trying to get at was your (a), hence my and while prohibition remains. Because of prohibition somebody who does something mild like ecstasy is more likely to meet up with people who do or distribute slightly harder drugs, even if their actual dealers only supply cannabis, ecstasy or amphetamines. Then if they move up the chain...

I've drunk alcohol all my adult life and I've never had anyone trying to sell me drugs on the back of it. However, I understand that somebody who does the milder drugs is more likely to be targeted by dealers of harder drugs.


Going off on a bit of a tangent, where I don't quite follow the argument of alcohol being more damaging than ecstasy is the addiction factor. I believe I'm right in saying that ecstasy is addictive, but I've certainly never found that alcohol is. I know that some people have a problem that way, but I've suspect that is not a problem with the alcohol per say, but a problem with the person's life and they are using the alcohol as a coping mechanism.

Whatever, the whole subject is complex.
 
posted by [identity profile] lavendersparkle.livejournal.com at 08:42am on 12/11/2009
My Google-fu says that ecstasy isn't physiologically addictive whereas there's debate about whether alcohol is physiologically addictive. They are both accepted to be psychologically addictive. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "I've certainly never found that alcohol is". Alcohol addiction may have quite a strong genetic factor, so you may just be at low risk of alcoholism. Most drug addicts in the UK are addicted to alcohol or tobacco.
ext_27570: Richard in tricorn hat (Default)
posted by [identity profile] sigisgrim.livejournal.com at 09:22am on 12/11/2009
What I meant by I've certainly never found that alcohol is [adictive to me] is that I don't have to have alcohol. I like it, but if I don't have it I don't have a problem. I go for weeks without having any, whether that be wine, spirits, cider (I don't like the taste of beers). Sometimes I might have quite it bit over a few days; but I never have any cravings.
 
posted by [identity profile] tigerfort.livejournal.com at 08:34pm on 11/11/2009
Yup. I've long wished that there was a rather larger intersection between what the best available evidence suggests we should do and what politicians think is "good policy". I periodically wonder about starting a party with the soleprimary* policy guidelines "follow best scientific advice" and "increase social justice", but suspect that it would be unelectable because it's so obviously opposed to the interests of the big media (and other special interest) groups....

*there are some circumstances where best scientific advice isn't available and you therefore have to choose some other means :)
 
posted by (anonymous) at 11:07am on 12/11/2009
So after reading The Corner I'm not convinced that prohibition is any answer, but I don't think legalisation is either: Gary McCullough's life would have been just as ruined whether his drugs were legal or illegal.

S.

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