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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 08:20am on 27/07/2010 under , ,
[livejournal.com profile] atreic and I are off to Portugal later in the year. In a probably-vain attempt to avoid being one of those annoying monoglot English tourists, and because I can only remember about two words from my previous trips to Portugal (with MWW, years ago), I thought I should try and pick up a bit of the language before then. There's a bewildering range of teach-yourself courses available (although the number is slightly reduced if you want European Portuguese), but I eventually settled upon Teach Yourself Instant Portuguese, since 35-45 minutes a day for 6 weeks seemed about the time I had available. Perhaps this redefinition of "instant" should have been a warning...

Anyhow, I finished week one on Sunday, and manage a respectable 89% in the test for the week. Having had yesterday off (you get one day off a week), I'll be starting week two later today. I don't yet feel I can say anything terribly useful, but I guess that's to be expected. It's obviously aimed at a certain type of person, though: one of the things I learned how to say is "A minha esposa tem um Mercedes", or "Trabalho para três bancos grandes. O trabalho é chato, mas o dinheiro é bom." It's pretty grammar-light, which is probably sensible, but can be a bit frustrating: I ended up looking ahead to see what the difference between "sou" and "estou" is, for example, and I'm not clear why sometimes it's "Tem uma casa em Londres", and other times "Sim, tem casa em Londres", or why sometimes you say "Estive em [place]", and other times "Estive no [place]". The author's view is that the little words aren't necessary to being comprehended, and that one is better off saying something approximately right but plausibly pronounced and confidently. She may well be right! I guess the test will be to see how useful it is in Portugal, or whether everyone will hear my badly-mangled Portuguese, wince, and reply in English...

Whilst looking around for a suitable course, I noticed Rosetta Stone[0], and Linguaphone, both of whom claim to be able to teach one to a plausibly-proficient level in a not-very-large period of time (although both shy way from claiming exactly how long, I note). I've always wondered if they are actually any good - if not, how do they stay in business, but if so, why don't we use them in schools, rather than taking 5 secondary years to get to GCSE level?

Finally, the course I have includes some flash-cards. I didn't want to cut my nice new book up, so I LaTeXd up some of my own (this involved debugging the slightly-bitrotted-flashcards package). [livejournal.com profile] pm215 suggested that I consider Anki, as a more intelligent way to do flashcard-type learning. So, having used only the old-fashioned flashcards last week, I'm going to give this a go this week. One difficulty, though, has been entering accented characters - LaTeX lets you specify them in ASCII, so \~a for ã, but that doesn't really work for Anki (you can feed it LaTeX, but it looks very odd having one LaTeX'd character in the middle of a word). After a bit of googling, I used xev to find out what X thought my Alt-Gr key was (ISO_Level3_Shift), and told X to use it as the Compose key: xmodmap -e "keysym ISO_Level3_Shift = Multi_key". This means I can generate most of the symbols in the WP page, although the rune for generating ǎ, for example, still doesn't work, and there should be a nicer way of setting this up.

This should be documented more usefully, I feel (I shouldn't be looking at WP, for example), and it would be nice to have something like the OSX app that shows you what the keyboard "looks" like (e.g. I'd hold down Alt-Gr, and it would highlight the keys that I could press to generate an accented character, as well as what accent would be about to appear)...

[0] who only offer the wrong sort of Portuguese
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lnr: Halloween 2023 (Default)
posted by [personal profile] lnr at 08:21am on 27/07/2010
We managed as much as being able to ask for more bottles of water/beer/wine and ask for the bill, and catch a bus, in the course of a long weekend with a phrasebook. So it sounds like you're going to be lightyears ahead of that :)

My favourite phrase though is still "I'm sorry, I didn't know it was illegal" - one which all phrasebooks should be sure to include, and which is sadly missing from my current Italian one. I did consider getting a proper Italian course rather than just a phrasebook. I suppose I even still have time!

So, when is Sally getting her Mercedes?
 
posted by [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com at 08:37am on 27/07/2010
Don't forget that Rosetta Stone et al. are to get you proficient in speaking and possibly reading, but GCSEs include writing. Also GCSEs usually teach you the underlying grammatical concepts (so you can port them from language to language, and provide the foundation for further academic study).
 
posted by [identity profile] meglorien.livejournal.com at 08:53am on 27/07/2010
I don't have any particular advice on specific courses, as I prepare my own classes for my students. I'm also of the opinion that a phrase book is almost as good and more useful as most "instant" courses. It's a pity they don't usually come with audio to it. Otherwise, you're not worse off in terms of grammar but have much more useful sentences. You could get an easy grammar with English explanations and a phrasebook and you will do well enough as far as communication goes.

As to the difference between ser and estar, it is rather difficult for all my students. The main difference is that ser is mainly for permanent things, and estar for more temporary things. Something that é, is something not likely to change. Like "Lisboa é em Portugal" (Lisbon is in Portugal). Something that está is liable to change. Like "o tempo está bom" (the weather is good). Now, the problem is that there are shades in this interpretation. For instance, you say "Esta é a minha mulher" (this is my wife), no matter that there divorce could happen sometime in the future (not in your case, one expects, but you know what I mean), however you always say "o livro está na estante" (the book is in the bookshelf) and never use ser for that sentence, even if you just have books in the shelves for decoration and never move them. I hope that helps. It is difficult.

You could do the course anyway, you'll learn something and at least in terms of pronunciation you'll get more than with a phrasebook.

Have fun in Portugal. The younger generation should all speak English, but I do have to admit not everybody does,
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:03pm on 27/07/2010
One of the reasons I picked this course was that it came with two CDs of audio material.

Thanks for the explanation :)
 
posted by [identity profile] samholloway.livejournal.com at 10:59am on 27/07/2010
I was reading an article recently about the 'new breed' of language courses which have a lot of online interactive content (electronic pen pals etc) and heard some very good things about Rosetta Stone in this context.

GCSE language courses reasonably occupy 2-3 hours a week for three years of academic terms. I did French from 11-16 but other languages in our school were picked up in the third year (Year 9 nowadays). GCSE requires all four skills - reading, writing, listening, speaking - while the language courses usually complete omit writing and are rather lax on grammar (as you found out).
 
posted by [identity profile] didiusjulianus.livejournal.com at 11:06am on 27/07/2010
why don't we use them in schools, rather than taking 5 secondary years to get to GCSE level?

Ah but everything takes longer in school for a variety of reasons (and even longer the bigger the class size and the more school hours taken up with things such as lunch and moving from class to class and getting settled again etc. etc.).
 
posted by [identity profile] alextfish.livejournal.com at 12:01pm on 27/07/2010
My school offered language learning for 5 years from Year 7, 3 years from Year 9, or 2 years from Year 10. The 2-year language courses were accelerated, self-study, via something similar to Linguaphone. I did GCSE German in one of these courses. I got an A, but found 6 weeks after the exam I couldn't remember any of it. (Whereas French and Latin, which I studied for 5 years and also got As in, I can still remember enough to form sentences of possibly-dubious grammar in.)
 
posted by [identity profile] rochvelleth.livejournal.com at 03:00pm on 27/07/2010
I'm working on French at the moment, for a Paris conference in September. I never did French at school, which I rather regret now! It's quite fun working on a language though, isn't it?

Is the difference between 'sou' and 'estou' that the former tends to express permanent states and the latter temporary states? That's the main difference in Spanish, anyway. But I have no experience at all of Portuguese - it always looks a bit strange to me.
 
posted by [identity profile] rochvelleth.livejournal.com at 03:14pm on 27/07/2010
P.S. What other people said about school learning of languages. I think in school it really pays to be in a class learning dynamically with other people (same goes for adult learners in night classes, etc.), if the aim is to build up long-term proficiency in a language. The only thing that maintains your level of proficiency, IME, is regular practice involving conversation. Courses like this are very good at getting you speaking on a short-term basis, but they tend to wear off. Last time I went to Paris, I did this sort of thing (though in a much less focused way), and was able to converse in a basic way (as well as I needed to!) for the week I was there... but, well, you know how I said I'm learning it for the trip this September? It didn't stay with me :)

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