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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:29pm on 19/10/2005
[livejournal.com profile] atreic and I have been disagreeing over what's the best way to operate the dimmer switch in Weathertop. So, we thought we'd ask LJ :-)


[Poll #593686]
Mood:: dim
There are 36 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com at 11:44am on 19/10/2005
If you’re serious about energy efficiency, use energy saving lightbulbs. They don’t work with dimmer switches; I interpret this to mean that you have to leave the dimmer switch at full on and click it on and off, rather than meaning that you can’t use an energy saving lightbulb in a socket controlled by a dimmer switch, but I don’t know for sure.

I believe energy saving lightbulbs generally have a longer life than normal lightbulbs also, but I don’t know where I got that from.
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 11:50am on 19/10/2005
The light in question is a set of 3 spotlights in a cluster; I didn't think you could get energy-saving bulbs suitable for putting in spots?
 
posted by [identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com at 12:06pm on 19/10/2005
Ah. No, you probably can’t. I’ve never seen any anywhere.
 
posted by [identity profile] hoiho.livejournal.com at 02:33pm on 19/10/2005
Mini-spot bulbs?
If so, yes, you can get them - IKEA sell them.
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 02:52pm on 19/10/2005
No, they're bigger than mini-spots, I think, looking at [livejournal.com profile] edith_the_hutt's URL above.
 
posted by [identity profile] hoiho.livejournal.com at 02:56pm on 19/10/2005
Hmm, those aren't "mini-spots", at least as I use the term.
It's all so random!
 
posted by (anonymous) at 09:34pm on 19/10/2005
As far as I'm aware, the modern mini-spotlights which use halogen bulbs are a much more energy efficient light source than conventional bulbs. My bedroom light is on a dimmer and consists of three teenyweeny halogen bulbs and even when clicked on to full power takes a moment to 'heat up' so switching it on to low and turning it up would make no difference.
ext_57795: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] hmmm-tea.livejournal.com at 09:42pm on 19/10/2005
They do work with dimmer switches...

...if you like strobe lights...
lnr: Halloween 2023 (Default)
posted by [personal profile] lnr at 11:46am on 19/10/2005
If you're going to go around using the light at full power all the time anyway then there's no point having a dimmer switch at all shurely? Replace it with a normal on/off switch.
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 11:50am on 19/10/2005
We're still renting. So that's more faff than I can be bothered with. And we do dim it very seldomly, it's quite nice to have a dimmer switch sometimes.
 
posted by [identity profile] mobbsy.livejournal.com at 11:56am on 19/10/2005
The obvious answer to the first two questions is to leave the light switched off.
 
posted by [identity profile] ex-lark-asc.livejournal.com at 12:10pm on 19/10/2005
Goth.
toothycat: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] toothycat at 11:58am on 19/10/2005
According to the sci.electronics repair FAQ, the switch itself is under the most stress and generates the most heat when set to around 50%.
 
posted by [identity profile] sphyg.livejournal.com at 12:00pm on 19/10/2005
I don't know, but I used to have a dimmer switch in my childhood bedroom and loved playing with it. Eek, bright lights!
 
posted by [identity profile] dumb-soprano.livejournal.com at 12:02pm on 19/10/2005
We used to regularly blow light bulbs by turning them on and off at full power. Much better now we turn the dimmer down and then off.
 
posted by [identity profile] randomchris.livejournal.com at 12:07pm on 19/10/2005
The only dimmer switch that I'm familiar with requires to be turned down all the way before it switches off (it's a knob going from 0 to "dimmest" with a click when turned anticlockwise, and then gets brighter as you turn it further in that direction).

I would think that the dimmer switch would last better if just clicked.

Also, if just clicked, the lightbulb would be on for slightly less time (you'd switch it off almost instantly rather than taking 2 seconds to do so), and would therefore use less energy. That's the only apparent difference in energy use that I can see.
 
posted by [identity profile] yrieithydd.livejournal.com at 12:51pm on 19/10/2005
The only dimmer switch that I'm familiar with requires to be turned down all the way before it switches off (it's a knob going from 0 to "dimmest" with a click when turned anticlockwise, and then gets brighter as you turn it further in that direction).

That's the sort I'm most familiar with too. I've seen the other sort (both ones with a conventional switch and ones where the dimmer knob clicks in and out) but have not used them. Although I suppose the weird panel switch I used to have in Cardiff counts. With that you either tapped it on and off or pressed gently to dim/undim. I have to admit to tapping it on and off because it was easier. A short tap worked whereas to do it gradually you had to make sure you didn't touch it too hard to start with. The really shiny thing about that light switch though was the remote control!
 
posted by [identity profile] keirf.livejournal.com at 12:07pm on 19/10/2005
I assume it's a modern dimmer that uses a TRIAC circuit to switch the light on and off rapidly. I think they contain capacitors to smooth out the choppiness of the current too.

1. So up to the point that you come to turn the light off, energy use is the same for both cases. If you then turn the switch off, energy use stops, whereas when you turn the dial down a small amount of energy is used until you turn off the light. Therefore dimming and turning off uses fractionally more energy. However, when you come to turn it on again you save the same amount of energy in the dimmed down state (provided you dim up and down at the same rate). But the circuit will use a very small amount of energy to drive the transistors in the dimmer. So the answer is turning it off immediately saves a tiny fraction of energy, namely the energy consumed by the during the period of dimming down and up. Dimming the switch to minimum before turning it on and off uses a minimal amount of extra energy.

2. Light bulbs burn out when the tungsten in a section of the filament evaporates away so much that there's a break. Switching on from cold means more current is drawn because cold filaments have more resistance, but the warming up happens very quickly. This surge can cause the bulb to blow (it's why bulbs often blow when you turn the light on). You would think that turning up the dimmer slowly is like a soft-start device such as a thermister, which will extend the life of the bulb, but we're chopping the current, rather than reducing the current draw, so a dimmer is a very poor soft-start device. And good slow-start thermistors only minimally extend the life of bulbs anyway. So dimming the switch to minimum before turning it on and off will result in a minimal life extention for the bulb.

That's what I think, anyway.
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 12:16pm on 19/10/2005
Quick googling gave me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimmer
http://freespace.virgin.net/tom.baldwin/bulbguide.html#mll

but support what keirf said.

My dimmer fantasy was presumably drawn from the days of rheostats: until I looked it up, I always felt leaving a dimmer on half was wasting something.

I wouldn't wager money on these, but it seems fairly clear that if you want to worry, worry about replacing them with something else, the dimmer isn't very important.

ETA: dumb_soprano claims anecdotal evidence that dimming *does* help not blow bulbs. OK, maybe we need to go beyond lj, go beyond google, and actually try something!
 
posted by [identity profile] davefish.livejournal.com at 12:23pm on 19/10/2005
That mostly covers what I was going to say.

Since you are worried about energy efficiency and using the spots, I'm fairly sure that higher wattage bulbs tend to be more efficient than the lower wattage equivalents.

gerald_duck: (duckling frontal)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 12:47pm on 19/10/2005
Compared with mains periodicity, the temperature of a light bulb's filament reacts quite slowly, and the heavily chopped mains waveform does approximate a lower voltage pretty accurately.

Agreed, for normal domestic use the improvement in bulb life from dimming it on rather than turning it on abruptly is way less than in stage or disco lighting, but I've heard guesstimates of around 20%. Whether or not that's a useful improvement is subjective.

Yes, the dimmer itself will be consuming a little power when dimmed, but it's also consuming a little power when the light is fully on. But I suspect resistance in the cable from switch to bulb loses more power than that once the house wiring's a decade old. (-8
 
posted by [identity profile] adqam.livejournal.com at 03:42pm on 19/10/2005
Excuse the pedant, but cold filaments have lower resistance, surely? Then, as the wire heats up the metal "ions" vibrate more, colliding with more electrons and increasing resistance. It is this low resistance when cold that leads to the surge in current you speak of:

I = V/R

This is, of course, entirely inaccurate if tungsten is a semiconductor :P
 
posted by [identity profile] keirf.livejournal.com at 01:24pm on 20/10/2005
Yes. I typed the wrong word.
gerald_duck: (frontal)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 12:26pm on 19/10/2005
Assuming the light bulbs are conventional incandescent tungsten-filament affairs, it makes no difference how gradually you turn them off, but it certainly prolongs bulb life to dim them up rather than turn them on abruptly.

If you need convincing, think about lights that don't have dimmer switches, and note that they burn out when being switched on much more often than they burn out in use.

Personally, I favour the kind of dimmer that one rotates fully anticlockwise to turn off, for precisely this reason.

As for energy saving, I doubt it makes much difference, except of course that light bulbs themselves cost energy to make, and you'll save some of that if you make them last longer. Arguably you save a little energy if you turn the light on gradually, simply because it's on fully for marginally less time. But then you counteract the saving if you turn it off gradually. (-8

What is inefficient, though, is leaving the lights dimmed. Incandescent bulbs aren't terribly efficient at the best of times, of course, but when dimmed an even greater proportion of the energy they consume is emitted as heat. If you find yourselves always keeping the lights dimmed, change to lower-wattage bulbs.
pm215: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 10:07pm on 19/10/2005
If you need convincing, think about lights that don't have dimmer switches, and note that they burn out when being switched on much more often than they burn out in use.

I think this is a bogus argument. Lights burn out on startup because of the inrush current for a cold lightbulb. Unless you can show that a dimmer switch on maximum dim limits the current sufficiently to keep the inrush current from taking out the weak spot in the filament, you haven't proved that you get any fewer bulb-blows-at-switchon incidents with the start-dim strategy. (And the Internet Light Bulb Book reckons that even if you do keep the weak spot from blowing now, it's still weak and you can't prolong its life by very much.)

gerald_duck: (duckling sideon)
posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 11:16pm on 19/10/2005
I=V/R. For the same resistance (which is true), a lower voltage means a lower inrush current.

Yes, if the filament has a weak spot, limiting the stress you put it under will only postpone the bulb blowing. However, always dimming the bulb up instead of switching it on abruptly will help prevent those weak spots developing in the first place.

As has been noted before, it's not a terribly major effect, but it's there. And we were only asked what the effect was, not how significant it was. (-8
pm215: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 12:32am on 20/10/2005
I=V/R

Yes, but the key word is 'sufficiently'. Clearly the current goes down, but does it go down enough? Anyway, enough of this pointless pedantry :-)

catyak: Wild Thing (Wild Thing)
posted by [personal profile] catyak at 12:34pm on 19/10/2005
For the first one, full on or full off will be fairly similar, although I guess full off may actually be marginally better. What may be worst is half-way because of the way most cheap dimmer switches work.

For the second one, turning off immediately uses less energy than adjusting to minimum and then turning off because you turn off sooner. Once off, you can adjust to minimum for the next time it's turned on.

For the third, you missed the option that states I know a lot about electrical stuff, and know my answers may not be correct.

D
 
posted by [identity profile] samholloway.livejournal.com at 12:48pm on 19/10/2005
Replace the dimmer switch with a normal switch. This will a) eliminate the argument, b) eliminate the nasty buzzing noise that dimmer switches cause (see the Wikipedia article referred to above), c) allow you to use energy-saving bulbs if you're that concerned.

Personally I find the cost of running standard 60W or 100W bulbs is so low, I don't tend to worry about it. Having said that, I do generally turn lights off when not in use.

An often-underestimated threat to bulb life is the design of a lampshade. Bulbs running too hot because they are 'too enclosed' will burn out much more quickly. (This is one reason why you shouldn't exceed the max wattage rating printed on the lampshade - you could end up with meltiness, or a fire!) If you ever find a particular light in the house keeps blowing, it's often worth checking how hot the bulb and its surroundings are getting.
 
posted by [identity profile] cjp39.livejournal.com at 03:31pm on 19/10/2005
Stop wasting time and leave the thing on full. Dim it only when you want it dimmed. Or use candles, they're much nicer.
ext_243: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] xlerb.livejournal.com at 06:32pm on 19/10/2005
I use compact fluorescents, you insensitive clod!
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:05am on 20/10/2005
I was asking about domestic illumination, not your gardening habits!
ext_57795: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] hmmm-tea.livejournal.com at 09:46pm on 19/10/2005
To be pedantic about this.

If you were to dim the light before switching it on and switch if off whilst at full-on. The bulb would be at full brightness for less time, so you'd save energy that way...
pm215: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 10:00pm on 19/10/2005

I answered after doing a quick google which found me The Great Internet Light Bulb Book which reckons it doesn't really make much odds.

But then I read the comments where you mention that it's a halogen bulb, and supposedly for those soft-start does make a difference. So maybe I should go back and change my answer...

 
posted by [identity profile] dagonet.livejournal.com at 12:50am on 20/10/2005
i was going to leave the benefit of my experience as a lighting technician, but then saw how many pages of comments there already were.

1. 90%
2. slowly
3. lighting techie.

dagonet

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