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GIP

posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:56pm on 01/12/2005 under ,
I've been thinking a bit more about Unicode recently, as well as wanting another userpic. After playing around with http://xn--k4h0q.pick.ucam.org/ a bit, I realised I could use this to produce a very large character, screen-grab that, and GIMP it a little. Here is the result :)

ETA: this is quite cool, too.
Mood:: 'geeky' geeky
There are 18 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] hoiho.livejournal.com at 01:10pm on 01/12/2005
Nice!
 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 01:27pm on 01/12/2005
I've just spent a while looking up the character in your icon, to discover that it's essentially the same thing as another of your icons :-)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 01:42pm on 01/12/2005
*giggle*

If you'd followed the link, there was a clue there, in that it talks about the Phoenix idiogram (is that the right word), and has a link to a picture of it...
 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 01:57pm on 01/12/2005
Ah - I counted strokes and used http://www.mandarintools.com/ instead.

(Ideogram is fine as a word for it!)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 02:02pm on 01/12/2005
I will now bewail the lack of ability to edit LJ comment to remove the typos!
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posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 10:20am on 04/12/2005
Ideogram is fine as a word for it

wikipedia's ideogram entry includes a not too bad summary of the opposing school of thought. Personally I think 'ideogram' is misleading because (for Japanese at least) 80%+ of characters are 'general field of meaning + pronunciation clue', which isn't much of an ideogram. (This apparently includes the 'phoenix' character, which is 'bird' plus a sound cue.)

Personally I just call them 'kanji', although that's a bit japanese-centric I suppose.

 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 01:35pm on 04/12/2005
I was regarding it as a Chinese character (hence looking it up in a Mandarin-English dictionary!). Some Chinese characters are entirely logographic, without indication of pronunciation e.g. ren4 (man); some contain a representation of pronunciation; some are only used for their sound value (as when Western names are represented by characters - I was called Lo3 Mei2 Sa4). I still think ideogram is not a bad word for Chinese characters in general - they're far more ideographic than alphabetic or syllabic scripts, after all. Similarly, I am happy (for general purposes) to describe Mandarin Chinese, and even English, as basically isolating languages, and Latin and Greek etc. as basically inflectional, even though all of these languages depart to some extent from pure isolating/inflecting principles (e.g. Mandarin represents the plurals of personal pronouns with a consistent morpheme -men i.e. wo3 "I" vs. wo3men "we", ni3 "you sg." vs. ni3men "you pl.").

For Japanese it may well be less appropriate or usual to refer to kanji as ideograms - I suppose there are the additional issues of (nearly all?) kanji being borrowed from Chinese, and the presence of two syllabic scripts alongside the characters. (Again, the notion of a "syllabic" script can often be quibbled with - many Indian scripts are generally described as syllabic, but turn out to have systematic ways of representing individual phonemes, deleting unwanted vowels etc., making them more alphabetic in some ways.)
 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 01:36pm on 04/12/2005
Sorry, in first paragraph "ren4" should be "ren2".
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posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 08:43pm on 04/12/2005

A quick survey of my bookshelf suggests that anything dealing with them purely as a component of the Japanese language simply calls them 'kanji' (which has the merit of being short and precise), perhaps with a gloss of 'Chinese characters' on first use. The book I have that deals more in etymology also uses 'Chinese characters' or just plain 'characters'.

I appreciate the point about using a term which is broadly accurate even if there are exceptions, but it seems to me to be stretching the point rather to use a word which only really applies to 10% of characters. It doesn't seem very helpful if you're trying to learn the things or study their history, and it can lead to Ezra-Pound style grabbing of totally the wrong end of the stick.

One of my books calls the major category 'semasio-phonetics' but I recommend sticking to "Chinese character" :-)

 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 10:09pm on 04/12/2005
I do use the word "character" myself when referring to Chinese, and really have no feelings one way or the other about how people ought to refer to kanji! I maintain, however, that it's quite reasonable for [livejournal.com profile] emperor to use the word "ideogram" in reference to Chinese characters (and following the link he includes in his post, this does seem to have been the language he was thinking of for the phoenix character).

It doesn't seem very helpful if you're trying to learn the things or study their history
Well, personally, when I was studying Mandarin, I found the notion of characters as representations of meanings far more useful than the notion of them as representing pronunciation - many more characters had some iconic feature linking them to their meaning than some obvious reference to pronunciation, at least for the way I was taught.
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posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 02:00am on 05/12/2005

Hmm. I suppose in some sense I think of them as conveying a meaning (certainly when reading I commonly run into words I understand but have forgotten the reading for...) Somehow 'ideogram' seems to have become associated for me with dodgy understanding of the characters and beliefs that you can somehow determine the meaning of a character from meanings assigned to its subcomponents. I think that's probably because everything I've read by somebody with more than a passing acquaintance with Japanese has used some other term, so it's become a sort of mental "does this person know what they're on about?" flag. Er, not that I apply that to you, I'm just trying to explain why you triggered a rant.

How do people typically teach the characters for Chinese? For Japanese the stock method is basically brute force memorisation starting with the simpler stuff, with some 'just so stories' about meaning thrown in. (There are some more comprehensive mnemonic systems around too; the more comprehensive the less connected to true etymologies, generally.) The pronunciation cue part of the character is usually undervalued, and you're almost left to work that bit out yourself. I do have one book which groups characters by common reading (and points out the exceptions to the groups), though.

Typically kanji learning starts some time after you've started learning the language itself, so you're learning how to write words you already know reasonably well, so I often found that when reading I might be able to guess a word from knowing the meaning of the characters, or in the other direction remember the readings of the individual characters and on putting them together find I had a word I actually knew. But then Japanese has the advantage that you can start with the hiragana and gradually bootstrap yourself into the kanji (and contrariwise if you forget a kanji you can always give up and just write it in hiragana :-)).

Is it the case that Chinese has only one reading per character?

 
posted by [identity profile] vyvyan.livejournal.com at 09:19am on 05/12/2005
How do people typically teach the characters for Chinese? For Japanese the stock method is basically brute force memorisation starting with the simpler stuff, with some 'just so stories' about meaning thrown in.

It was fairly similar for me, for Chinese. The first words you learn, for simple conversations, often have very straightforward iconic links to meaning - as well as the "man" character mentioned above (which I think is jin in Japanese), words like "sun/day" and "moon/month" spring to mind. ISTR my teacher explaining the etymology of such characters, with reference to the oracle bone evidence. Sometimes only the radical would be meaningful e.g. in the 3rd person pronouns, "he" used the male radical, and "she" used the female radical. Helpfully they also had similar pronunciations, using the same syllable ta but different tones - so I suppose I might initially have thought of the other (shared) part of the characters as representing the pronunciation, whether or not this was etymologically accurate.

Of course, as time went on, the words became more complex and the obvious connections to meaning rarer and less helpful in general! Sometimes I would notice similarities in pronunciation between characters with a shared component, and sometimes (rather more often, I think) the links would be via meaning, often the radical. But usually I just ended up inventing my own mnemonics, typically linking form and meaning in some etymologically unlikely way :-)

While I believe some people are taught to speak a variety of Chinese before learning to write it (and obviously all native speakers will have done this!) my own experience, and the practice in most FL textbooks I've seen, involved learning characters right from the start, with a great emphasis on correct stroke order and direction in writing. (This made such a deep impression on me that I still feel obliged to draw boxes - for any purpose - as though they were components of a character...) There is, of course, no clear hiragana-like alternative to characters when writing Chinese, and I noticed that the letters home of some of my Cantonese schoolfriends were dotted with occasional English words, where (they said) they had forgotten the character and couldn't be bothered to look it up.

Is it the case that Chinese has only one reading per character?
Pretty much, yes. The idea of "readings" only really makes sense for me for Japanese, where I gather that many characters have both a native Japanese pronunciation (perhaps not even matching the character in number of syllables) and a pronunciation derived from the Chinese pronunciation at the time of borrowing (e.g. ren2 ~ jin mentioned earlier). In (Mandarin) Chinese, each character will typically have one pronunciation, exactly one syllable long (there are probably a few exceptions, but none leap to mind). The many-one mapping occurs rather in the other direction i.e. each syllable, even with a particular tone, will have several different characters available to represent it (with different meanings). In speech, only context can disambiguate most words, though apparently, Chinese people will occasionally sketch a character in the air to clarify which meaning is intended, though I haven't personally observed this.

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posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 12:05pm on 05/12/2005
I gather that many characters have both a native Japanese pronunciation (perhaps not even matching the character in number of syllables) and a pronunciation derived from the Chinese pronunciation at the time of borrowing

Yes. For example 人 (man) has the Japanese reading 'hito' (when the character stands alone) and also readings 'nin' and 'jin' in compounds. I'm told that characters with two on-yomi were borrowed twice at different points in history. One reading of each type is the common case.

Since the Japanese reading is simply the original Japanese word for the concept the character expresses, it's usually polysyllabic. (They have a rather different flavour to words borrowed from Chinese or coined from the Chinese readings, which are usually two character compounds with one syllable per character.) Occasionally a Japanese word has been applied to a combination of characters, as with 今日 [kyou] (today), in which case you can't split the word into two parts with each character having one part as a reading -- you just have to treat the whole word as a special case.

Remembering which reading to use in particular words is one of the more tedious parts of Japanese :-)

I'm glad to hear that textbooks for Chinese language learners introduce the writing system from the start. A few decades ago it was common for Japanese entry level textbooks to ignore the writing system totally and just use romanisation. This has now fallen out of favour, happily. My view is that you've got to learn to read and write at some point so you might as well start early. (But that's partly a consequence of my personal prejudices in favour of reading rather than live conversation.)

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posted by [personal profile] pm215 at 02:15am on 05/12/2005
(nearly all?) kanji being borrowed from Chinese

There are apparently about a dozen 'made in Japan' characters in the standard set of 1945. 働 [dou|hatara.ku] (work) is probably the most common; my book claims the Chinese have borrowed it back :-) That one's unusual in having two readings; the on-yomi, usually a mangling of the Chinese pronuncation at the time of borrowing, is in this case copied from 動 .

 
posted by [identity profile] tienelle.livejournal.com at 03:12pm on 01/12/2005
Well, the Apple parts (menus and titlebars) can draw everything fine (modulo getting a smily face instead of an exclamation mark in a triangle), but Firefox itself just puts question marks.
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 03:42pm on 01/12/2005
Use Safari, then :)
 
posted by [identity profile] tienelle.livejournal.com at 03:50pm on 01/12/2005
I know I had a reason for using Firefox. I can't remember what it was, but I'm sure it was compelling.

(and 1.5 has finally fixed the middle-mouse-button bug - hurrah!)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 06:31pm on 01/12/2005
The safari in 10.4 now has a "actually ask the server for another version of this page, rather than showing me your cached copy", which was something that really annoyed me about previous versions.

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