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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 10:24pm on 24/08/2007 under ,
I read Dawkin's The God Delusion a while ago, and my own comments on that have been sitting on the "TODO" list for a while now. In the mean time, one of [livejournal.com profile] atreic's cow-orkers loaned her a couple of little books on the subject, the first of which is by Alister McGrath...

The aim of this book seems to be largely to burn down some of Dawkin's straw men. McGrath takes four of Dawkins' main themes and tries to show that in constructing them Dawkins falls victim to his own cognitive bias and in doing so falls far short of the scientific method he is so keen to espouse, whilst caricaturing religious beliefs grossly in support of his argument. This isn't generally all that difficult - Dawkins' book is a vitriolic, polemic rant, and its author doesn't really try to pretend otherwise. I'm not sure it's all that interesting, either. Is anyone really pretending The God Delusion is a serious attempt to persuade religious people to abandon their beliefs?

What I would have liked to see more of was McGrath trying to counter Dawkins points with a positive argument for the religious point of view; why does McGrath believe in God? There's a tendency to say "Dawkins has oversimplified - it's more complex than that", which I think leaves McGrath open to a charge of obfuscation in places. For example: in discussing whether there are questions that science cannot answer, McGrath says:

Yet most importantly, there are many question that, by their very nature, must be recognised to lie beyong the legitimate scope of the scientific method, as this is normally understood. For example: Is there purpose within nature? Dawkins regards this as a spurious non-question. Yet this is hardly an illegitimate question for human beings to ask, or to hope to have answered. Bennett and Hacker poitn out that the natural sciences are not in a position to comment upon this, if their methods are applied legitimately.


That's very unsatisfactory. The author should have addressed *why* science can't answer this question - the case is far from obvious, it seems to me.

Nonetheless, this book has its good points. It gives a couple of the most egregious of Dawkins' theological errors, without turning into a hugely tedious list of them; why we should care about Dawkins' theological illiteracy is addressed, too, rather than being treated as self-evident (as some of Dawkins' critics have). I think McGrath picks some of Dawkins' more important points to pick apart, too, which helps making this book short but relevent, rather than appearing merely pedantic. It is also clearly-written and jargon-free, whilst mostly avoiding the angry tone it so deplores in Dawkins' book.

In summary, this is a generally clear and concise work which might help puncture some of the ego and arguments behind The God Delusion; that it fails to provide a comprehensive case for religious belief at the same time is substantially a product of its otherwise-commendable brevity.
There are 10 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
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posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 10:27pm on 24/08/2007
I don't know what the target market is for The God Delusion. I can't see it converting theists; as an agnostic I'd rather read something more measured such as Karen Armstrong's A History of God. I suppose there are a lot of hardcore atheists who want a sense of validation for their views.

Then again, you read the book, so his marketing's not completely out of kilter. :-p

As for the quotation from McGrath, my personal view is that purpose requires sentience. Nature with a small 'n' certainly contains a lot of sentient fauna working to its various purposes; whether large-'N'-Nature has a purpose seems a less interesting question than whether Nature is sentient. It seems that perceiving nature gods is something so fundamental it may not even be confined to humanity — though my personal suspicion is that pattern-formers are just very at anthropomorphising (primatomorphising?) phenomena.
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 10:45pm on 25/08/2007
Then again, you read the book, so his marketing's not completely out of kilter

Well, M read the book because a (not particularly) evangelical atheist gave it me for my birthday. So I assume the target market is atheists who want to tell their religious friends how annoyed they are, and get them back for all the chick tracts.
 
posted by [identity profile] naath.livejournal.com at 12:13pm on 25/08/2007
Oh, Dawkins is just being ranty mcrantypants. I don't really see why anyone (including Dawkins) would think that TGD is anything other than a rant. I don't see why it was published really, since it isn't very useful and just makes atheists seem more ranty.

I don't see why atheists 'ought' be theologically literate. Unless of course they intend to write books on theology, in which case they should learn or stfu.
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 10:47pm on 25/08/2007
I think the argumrnt goes that a book on "why your theology is bollocks" falls under the catagory of "books on theology". At least if you start addressing specific points, rather than just make arguments that have nothing to do with the details of theology
 
posted by [identity profile] plinthy.livejournal.com at 02:12pm on 25/08/2007
I haven't read TDD (though it was encouraging to see it sold side-by-side with TGD in Waterstones, but regarding things you mention here there are a couple of interesting points.

TGD does get ranty in a few places, but generally only places that really deserve it (the theologian suggesting the holocaust gave Jews a chance to show dignity and courage springs to mind). Dawkins himself makes the point that the book would be considered fairly measured if it were about anything other than religion (think of the rant index of the last political non-fiction you read, maybe).

He's absolutely guilty of over-simplifying. Especially where he talks about religion as a cause of war and so on - he makes no mention whatsoever of the idea of religion as cultural marker. I think that was probably the worst part of the book.

I utterly disagree with the statement in the quote, but for different reason to you. Dawkins regards the question "What is the purpose of nature?" as a "spurious non-question", precisely because he regards the question "Does nature have a purpose?" as having the answer "no".

Mr Duck - the freakonomics blog asked the same question as you and got an enormous number of comments.

With regards theological literacy, there is a tendency among the religious to regard as philosophically vital and of great significance facts that people who don't share their view regard as an interesting facet/detail of their particular beliefs. The concept of Jesus dying for our sins is a particular one: I've been at Speakers' Corner and listened to fundamentalist Christians and Muslims arguing[1], and the Christian said "Aha - but who dies for your sins in Islam?!" with a look as though he had made a devastating, cutting point, while the Muslim just looked bemused.


[1] great fun.
 
posted by [identity profile] griffen.livejournal.com at 05:36pm on 25/08/2007
Especially where he talks about religion as a cause of war and so on - he makes no mention whatsoever of the idea of religion as cultural marker.

Except that the only problem there is only that cultural markers of all kinds are often the cause of war, and religion is simply one of the most egregious of cultural markers - and apparently that connection isn't made, which it should have been.

I'm having trouble reading these discussions here because I am essentially an atheist, and I can't take the idea of the god described in the Christian bible seriously at all, so I have more than a little sympathy with Dawkins' irritation with religious-minded folk (and his views in general). To me, the idea of nature having "a purpose" is as irrelevant and incomprehensible to me as the idea of someone "dying for your sins" is to a Muslim.
 
posted by [identity profile] griffen.livejournal.com at 05:52pm on 25/08/2007
I think that the issue about the question "Does nature have a purpose?" is also a question of validity versus utility. Is it valid to ask that question? Certainly. Is it useful to ask that question? I don't think so. It leads to a dead end, where you can't prove your hypotheses (at least not without making enormous assumptions), and thus it's a waste of time even to ask it. It also doesn't help us solve any of the really important questions, like: How are we supposed to live our lives? How should we treat other people? How does global warming happen, and what can we do about it? In the face of these questions, why would anyone even bother trying to find out whether or not nature has a purpose? There are far more important and useful questions to be pursuing.

"Why does X do Y"-type questions, in general, seem to be pointless questions to me. "HOW does X do Y" questions seem much more useful and worthy of the time spent on them - because for those questions, we can actually get some kind of supportable answer.
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 10:50pm on 25/08/2007
TGD does get ranty in a few places, but generally only places that really deserve it

Hmm. I thought that TGD is generally pretty constantly ranty, or at least when it's not shouty-ranty it's snarky-ranty for the entire book. But I mean, this makes it a very engaging and amusing read (when it doesn't wear a bit thin). I'm surprised you thought it wasn't that ranty.
 
posted by [identity profile] mtbc100.livejournal.com at 02:31pm on 26/08/2007
Er, is there a comprehensive case for religious belief? I wonder what you had in mind.
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posted by [identity profile] nja.livejournal.com at 10:59am on 28/08/2007
What I would have liked to see more of was McGrath trying to counter Dawkins points with a positive argument for the religious point of view; why does McGrath believe in God?

That was my problem with Dawkins' God, McGrath's pre-TGD attempt to argue with Dawkins. More here, and I had a discussion with [livejournal.com profile] vinaigrettegirl about it some time ago (summary, as far as I can remember, is that McGrath and Dawkins both mean different things by the words "faith", "evidence" and "proof").

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