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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 05:02pm on 25/08/2007 under ,
So, the other response to The God Delusion that [livejournal.com profile] atreic has on loan from a cow-orker.

One of the main premises of this little book is that precious few of the arguments marshalled in The God Delusion actually address the existence or otherwise of God. It starts by dividing Dawkins' work up into 63 arguments or assertions, and claiming that only 8 of those are actually arguments against the existence of God. The meat of this book deals with those 8 arguments in turn.

Before Wilson gets into that, though, there are a couple of diversions. Firstly, he takes issue with Dawkins categorising most believers as either hard-line fundamentalists or woolly liberals who aren't really religious at all. The author is an Evangelical Christian, and so claims that Dawkins has excluded the middle here. In a moment of unintentional irony, he claims that this middle should solely be filled by evangelical Christians. He then parodies Dawkins' selection from the "366 reasons why God exists" in amusing style, including:
Argument from the Ultimate Boeing 747: Given the non-existence and non-eternity of God, it is extremely unlikely that a God would have suddently appeared from nowhere. A 'multiverse' is a simpler option. Therefore God does not exist.


All very entertaining, but I did wonder that if one is going to complain about the tone of Dawkins' polemic, shouldn't one be scrupulously polite in response?

The three large remaining sections deal with Anti-supernaturalism, Scripture, and the Improbability of God in turn. An underlying theme is, I think, that Dawkins' arguments often assume their conclusions, or at least rely on a worldview that is no more substantiated than the theistic one that so irks Dawkins. The arguments are clearly presented, and generally pretty sound. He points out that the multiple universes hypothesis isn't all that convincing itself, although I think he and Dawkins are talking past each other as to whether positing the existence of an eternal creator is an issue of complexity or not.

I had some issues with the arguments Wilson advances, though. Having demonstrated that Dawkins' ignorance of theology, philsophy, sociology, et al weakens his arguments substantially in places, it is unwise of Wilson to attempt to tackle in passing issue of irreducible complexity and evolution. He's not a biologist, and it shows. In the middle of a very good chapter on scripture (which deals with much of Dawkin's argument against the New Testament concisely, and with clarity), he asserts that Christians[1] are Christians primarily because they are convinced by the historical evidence for the resurrection. I'm not sure this is true; I suspect many people believe because of some experience of the divine, or for some other reason, rather than that they have been convinced by pages of argument about the historical events of 30AD or so. He is right, however, that a discussion of the arguments around the resurrection of Christs body (or some other hypothesis for the empty tomb) is a notable omission from Dawkins' book.

[1]Well, evangelicals, but he is claiming elsewhere that most Christians are evangelicals

I think if you are already a Christian (particularly if you have evangelical sympathies), you may find this more satisfying that McGrath's work. The latter is more thoughtful in tone, and relies on scripture less, so would probably appeal more to a more neutral reader (if any of those exist on this topic!).
There are 9 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] stephdairy.livejournal.com at 05:01pm on 25/08/2007
I wasn't aware there was any evidence for the resurrection.

(S)
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 07:33pm on 25/08/2007
Wilson's case is roughly as follows. First, start with an empty tomb. Geza Vermes book "Jesus the Jew" is cited as discussing broad historical agreement that the tomb was empty, and it is additionally advanced that if this were not the case, the early Christian movement would have been scuppered by someone producing the body (they made it central to their early preaching); also Matthew 28:11-15 is a story that would only have been necessary if the tomb was actually empty and the "soldiers falling asleep" story was being put around to explain it.

Wilson then offers four possible explanations as to why the tomb might have been empty: 1) the authories stole Jesus' body, and the disciples made up the resurrection appearances in response to this; 2) Jesus survived the crucifixion, rolled away the stone himself, and took out the guards; 3) the disciples stole the body themselves and then pretended or imagined that they saw him alive afterwards 4) the resurrection

He counters the first three as follows: 1) both Jewish and Roman authorities were hostile to Christianity, and would have known that producing Jesus' corpse would have been quite an effective check to the disciples' early preaching; 2) is dismissed as implausible due to the efficiency of the Romans' execution methods, and the difficulty of rolling the stone away single-handed in such a battered state; 3) it is hard to see the disciples imagining the various different purported appearances post-resurrection if they had themselves stolen away Christs' dead body and hidden it somewhere. Furthermore, is it really likely many people would be prepared to die for something they knew was not true? Additionally, it seems that the resurrection was something of a surprise to the disciples, which would argue against them plotting to fabricate it.
 
posted by [identity profile] hsenag.livejournal.com at 10:18pm on 25/08/2007
Surely if they had plotted to fabricate it, they would have faked surprise too?
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 10:55pm on 25/08/2007
Of course, I think in this argument he falls foul of the law of the excluded middle again... there are more than 4 ways to empty a tomb, and most of them are more likely than people coming back to life.
 
posted by [identity profile] kaet.livejournal.com at 02:52am on 26/08/2007
I don't want to talk about the resurrection (or otherwise) in particular because it's a subject which is more important to many people than to me, and it's easy to trample over people's feelings in a situation like that.

But, in an analogous fictitious situation, I'm not sure I believe the argument about point three. In a situation as emotionally strained as the crucifixion of the leader of your religion, I can easily imagine one or more of that religion's disciples (even all of them) taking that body, and then in a Macbeth "is this a dagger"/"out damn spot" like situation, as prophecy takes over from causality in the minds of the protagonists, despite perhaps all of them being 'in on the act', they could easily become increasingly unhinged by guilt and denial to the extent that they believe they see a resurrection each in genuine hallucination. Once the counterfactual is established as truth, that can then drive themselves increasingly extreme ("The lady protests too much, methinks") assertions and actions, combining with guilt to produce an intense desire for martyrdom.
 
posted by [identity profile] ruth-lawrence.livejournal.com at 07:50am on 26/08/2007
Yes, that.

:-(

she-who-was curlygrrrl
 
posted by [identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.com at 09:41am on 26/08/2007
There's a line of thought I toy with from time to time that says that 1) is less crazy than it sounds. It's a bit of a conspiracy theory, but nevertheless, here it goes.

The Romans were in a bit of a quandry. On the one hand, they had this new - and popular - religious movement going around, which unlike other NRMs of the time preached compliance with the Romans. Therefore giving the religion a helping hand would be potentially quite useful. On the other hand, to maintain their rule, the Romans had to placate a) the mob and more importantly b) their collaborators who were busy stirring up the mob. So the Romans couldn't be seen to act in Christianity's favour. So they soon end up with a dead (or possible variant - half-dead) Jesus on their hands. So what can they do? Someone comes up with the idea of making the body mysteriously vanish, it will be interpreted as a miracle and give this new (and promising) idea the fighting chance it needs, everyone involved can be sworn to secrecy and their Jewish collaborators/mob never need to know that the Romans have been playing both sides. The news of this never gets to the Imperial court and so when Nero finds out about members of this strange new Jewish sect that would make good scapegoats, he has no qualms about going out and persecuting them.

This idea has its notable problems; in particular, it relies too much on the Romans correctly guessing what Christianity's later opinions on the Romans and the Jews will be, not to mention all of the other difficulties with conspiracies. But it's not one I've heard anyone else come up with, which makes me wonder if there isn't a whole load of other possibilities that we aren't hearing about either.

I think 4) is a good explanation as any if you think that things such as God, the Incarnation etc. (that's quite a big etc. there, by the way) were halfway plausible to start with, and I think that the survival of Christianity post-crucifixion is one of the better arguments out there. A long time ago it was almost enough to convince me - almost. Since then I've put more intellectual weight on the idea that people do strange and inexplicable things, especially if they're from different cultures or different backgrounds, that no-one fully understands them, and that arguments that run along the lines "but people would never do X" don't constitute anything like absolute proof.
 
posted by [identity profile] saraphale.livejournal.com at 10:57am on 27/08/2007
All of which assumes that Jesus existed, was crucified, that his body was taken away (apparently not a common practice, people were just left on the stake), and that he was put in a tomb. Basically, option 5) the entire story is a fabrication.
 
posted by [identity profile] angoel.livejournal.com at 10:16pm on 27/08/2007
If I heard that a criminal who had been executed in modern times was mysteriously alive again, then regardless of the evidence against the modern analogues of 1, 2 or 3, I suspect I'd still believe they were more likely than the modern analogue of 4. I don't see why this wouldn't hold even moreso about a case where we have little or no first-hand evidence.

[Although, despite having written this, bits of my brain remain unreasonably credulous about Jesus resurrecting. Strange, illogical brain ;)]

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