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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 12:34pm on 20/12/2006 under
Following discussion elsewhere, I am interested in what people think about contracts you make with a business. Some people seem to think that you should only ever sign a contract you entirely agree with, whilst others think that challenging unfair contracts later is OK (it's certainly legal, but that's a different question). So, for this case (and not the person-person nor business-business case):

[Poll #892348]

[I'm assuming here that the unfair terms are actually biting]
There are 38 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] atreic.livejournal.com at 12:44pm on 20/12/2006
If you didn't understand the terms, or didn't see how they were pertinent to the situation where they are biting you, then you didn't morally sign up to them by signing the contract. But it's still morally dodgy (and very stupid) to sign a contract you don't understand.
 
posted by [identity profile] borusa.livejournal.com at 12:45pm on 20/12/2006
I think it's only right if the terms in question were unclear, unrevealed or not within the realms of whatever the industry standard is in the area. Or if some form of outside pressure was brought to bear that would preclude you from analysing the terms sufficiently, or cause you to sign despite objections.

For example : Contracts to buy timeshares signed at the end of a high-pressure sales pitch should not be binding (or, rather, should have a "cooling down" period).
 
posted by [identity profile] aardvark179.livejournal.com at 01:02pm on 20/12/2006
I can't really vote for a straight yes, because it clearly might not always be moral, for example you might have knowingly benefitted from those terms up to the point where the pendulum swung the other way, at which point challenging them is probably not the moral thing to do.

I think it may actually be harder to justify challenging them if you kicked up a fuss before signing the contract, since that would indicate that although you didn't like the terms you did understand them and signed anyway.

Now, what would you be interested in getting in exchange for that soul of yours? :)
emperor: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] emperor at 03:34pm on 20/12/2006
A 12-foot scarf in a less vibrant colour? :-)
 
posted by [identity profile] ex-lark-asc.livejournal.com at 01:09pm on 20/12/2006
I think you should worry less about what's moral and more about what the best thing for you and Sally is; do you need the money more than a quiet life, will you be disappointed with yourself unless you attempt to avoid being screwed over, would pursuing the situation generate more stress than your current life situation can absorb?
 
posted by [identity profile] firinel.livejournal.com at 01:14pm on 20/12/2006
I think you should worry less about what's moral and more about what the best thing for you and Sally is

Perhaps some people believe that ultimately, what's best for them is that they behave in a moral fashion.
 
posted by [identity profile] pjc50.livejournal.com at 03:37pm on 20/12/2006
Is supporting a letting agency's sharp business practices out of your own wallet really the morally right thing here?
 
posted by [identity profile] ex-lark-asc.livejournal.com at 04:35pm on 20/12/2006
Quite apart from which, there's a hell of a lot of value in being certain that your "moral" system supports what will keep you sane. Not all moral systems are designed with modern culture in mind, let alone the specific and often unusual needs of particular individuals or families; it's best by far to be flexible and willing to question your "morality". Which is the major reason I object to the use of the term "morality" in the first place.
 
posted by [identity profile] firinel.livejournal.com at 06:53pm on 20/12/2006
That really has nothing at all to do with my point, and bears no relation to not only what I said, but also what I think.
 
posted by [identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.com at 01:18pm on 20/12/2006
In an ideal world: no. Then again, in an ideal world, the issue wouldn't come up.

If:

a) Signing a contract was a much rarer event than it is,
b) Contracts were more clearly written, and things that were likely to be contentious were seperated from all of the boring motherhood-and-apple-pie stuff, and
c) Contracts were made available in advance for your perusal so that you (or experts acting on your behalf) could examine them *before* going through all of the hassle of applying for something,

and consequently,

d) this actually meant that people were much less willing to try and slip crap terms into contracts than they are currently,

then I'd be a lot happier for "fair" to be decided as "what was agreed at the time the contract was signed" rather than a much broader notion that encompasses social attitudes, legislation and legal precedent.
 
posted by [identity profile] davefish.livejournal.com at 04:03pm on 20/12/2006
Very well put, I agree with this entirely.
 
posted by [identity profile] wellinghall.livejournal.com at 01:27pm on 20/12/2006
You really, really should make sure you understand a contract before you sign it.
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posted by [personal profile] emperor at 01:31pm on 20/12/2006
The problem is that often you have little negotiating space (e.g. with regards house rental).
 
posted by [identity profile] the-local-echo.livejournal.com at 01:32pm on 20/12/2006
Yes, if it's something unforeseen at the time by both parties which ends up giving a huge advantage/disadvantage to one person, especially if the intention behind the clause is something different.

This would tend to be due to bad drafting, although a lot of these things only become obvious in hindsight.

Hypothetical example:

You insure your house for all risks, but the small print excludes damage caused by a riot, and gives the current police definition of a riot. The reason behind this is that the police will pay compensation for riot damage, so you don't need insurance.

Part way through the policy, the police change the definition of a riot slightly. You're no longer covered (Or covered twice!).
It would, I think, be moral to challenge the policy to suggest it should read 'whatever is defined as a riot by the police when the incident happens'.
Of course, the insurance company might be able to argue that factoring in possible changes of definitions would have made the policy more expensive.

However, as the insurance company were the ones who drafted the contract, I think they have more of a moral obligation than the purchaser to ensure the contract is drafted well enough that the small print conforms to the underlying intentions and expectations of the contract.
 
posted by [identity profile] sesquipedality.livejournal.com at 01:33pm on 20/12/2006
I'm not with the whole "you knew what you were getting into" crowd because contracts aren't generally signed in an environment where those entering into agreement have equal power. In practice, this leads to a lot of contracts that are extremely one-sided.
 
posted by [identity profile] covertmusic.livejournal.com at 03:27pm on 20/12/2006
What she said.
 
posted by [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com at 01:38pm on 20/12/2006
Somewhere inbetween. If you were basically bullied or misled into it -- eg. because you rented a house and were not at liberty to renegotiate the contract, or because unfair clauses were buried in it, then yes. If you signed in full knowledge with the intention of not keeping the terms, then no. This situation seems somewhere inbetween.
 
posted by [identity profile] naath.livejournal.com at 01:40pm on 20/12/2006
I think 'yes' but only if you were somehow forced into signing the contract and couldn't get it changed. For example Russels have a lot of property in Cambridge and it is entirely possible that you might be forced to rent with them or not have a(n affordable) house within comutable distance of your work - which gives them a lot of power over you. Or for example if there are very few jobs and you need one then you might not be able to argue about the contract.

Also you might not find out that your contract is 'unfair' untill you have signed it. For example I am happy with my employment contract but if I were to discover that if they had hired a similarly qualified man he would have been paid more then that is unfair.

I don't think you should ever challenge 'unfair' contracts that you didn't need to sign in the first place - like holiday bookings for instance.
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posted by [personal profile] gerald_duck at 01:43pm on 20/12/2006
I think, morally, you ought to have kicked up at least some fuss before signing unless the part of the problem is that the clauses were unfairly inconspicuous or misleading.

I don't feel they need to have refused to budge; their equivocating or procrastinating would be enough for me.
 
posted by [identity profile] pjc50.livejournal.com at 01:50pm on 20/12/2006
When dealing with businesses, feel free to construe everything in the way maximally favourable to your own interests. They'd do the same to you. This only doesn't hold if you have some evidence that they might be "nice", willing to give you a break in some way.
 
posted by [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com at 02:26pm on 20/12/2006
Yes, particularly in cases of housing, because they basically use unfair leverage. I signed an unfair contract for housing with my college (which I plan to complain about just as soon as I've got my degree).
 
posted by [identity profile] kaet.livejournal.com at 02:33pm on 20/12/2006
I think the way that, in practice, lettings contracts are largely exploitative of the tenant, whereas they have a surface veneer of mutuality is a result of the greater iniquity in society.

You cannot have a fair contract between someone who is relying upon a contract for shelter and someone who's relying on it for something less fundamental (in the Maslow sense) in a situation where there's a cartel on shelter, or inelastic supply; any more than you can have a fair contract between someone who has all the food and someone who is hungry.

I must say that I'm a little amazed that you feel that a letting agency, whose principal purpose seems to be to dehumanize the interactions between landlords and tenants and generally perpetuate injustices, would be affected by moral arguments, or that these people who have some residual contractual obligations over you, is a politic place to start in dealing with housing injustices, beyond any material gain.

I'm sure that many of the people who work there, if not all of them, are trapped in a cycle of work, debt, and so on, and are victims of the injustice as much as you are. It's a kind of institutional immorality, rather than a personal one.

It seems a little like titling at windmills to me, though I suppose it's an honourable end, all other things being equal.
 
posted by [identity profile] 1ngi.livejournal.com at 04:05pm on 20/12/2006
I raised some eyebrows when signing my job contract at crossing out and marking the bit that said "as per the duties outlined in the job description attached" with 'to be confirmed". The job description wasn't attached. (In fact the job description wasn't ever finalised while I was there) I felt very uncomfortable doing it but I (very sweetly) pointed out to them that it would have been extremely silly of me to sign it without pointing out the ommision. And they couldn't argue.

I think the point I am making is that people sometimes forget that they are legally entitled to alter a contract before signing it. It is then up to the contract holders to agree or not. They have underwriters to, well, underwrite it. You don't. Another way to deal with it is to request time to run it past a solicitor. Then watch the smiles become a bit fixed. I don't think I'd have had the balls to do that with my job contract. Of course none of this is easy when someone is dangling the keys to a roof over your head and you have a deadline pinning you into a corner.

And my don't we all have 20/20 hindsight... Good luck with it all.
 
posted by [identity profile] 1ngi.livejournal.com at 04:13pm on 20/12/2006
and roofs have keys. Apparently.
 
posted by [identity profile] deliberateblank.livejournal.com at 04:09pm on 20/12/2006
As mentioned above, you have very little power to negotiate reasonable terms between you and your letting agency/landlord. If you quibble they can always refuse to let to you, leaving you homeless.

The law recognises that individuals are often at a disadvantage when negotiating contracts, and that as a result contract often come to contain conditions which are unreasonable. If such a contract is challenged in court, any clauses deemed to be "Unfair" may be struck out and held unenforceable.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/Consumer/Unfair+terms+in+contracts/what+are+unfair+terms.htm
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/36623FC6-E9BC-4D9A-B4BF-39191E06F802/0/oft381.pdf
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DAAEFE58-1AAB-422A-AFED-BDE6C654A4EE/0/oft356.pdf (this one looks useful, especially around page 27)

Of course, it keeps happening because few people choose to challenge them.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 05:12pm on 20/12/2006
I find the "you agreed to it" responses puzzling. If it were a fair bargain then I would agree but contracts between individuals and people like letting agents (and big companies in general) are rarely fair bargains.

In particular:

Terms which are unfair ought not to be in form contracts at all: putting them in is both immoral and illegal (in the sense that if someone can be bothered thay can be struck down and the organisation told not to include them any longer). So any organisation putting unfair terms into its contracts ought to expect them to be ignored, struck down, contested, etc.

It is therefore fair enough to sign a contract knowing that some of the terms might not be enforceable and so you might not need to abide by them. This is no more of a sharp practice than putting the terms in to start with.

As others have noted, it is hardly the case that you have equal bargaining power. If you object to terms because they were unfair, the letting agent will show you the door and your choice of housing will be seriously restricted.

Note also that you are doing unto them just as they would do unto you. No-one is seriously suggesting that your counterparty would avoid taking advantage of any and every loophole to gain advantage. Indeed in your tale we see quite the opposite. If they are willing to do whatever they can get away with then it's quite fair for you to do the same. You owe them no quarter.

Indeed, making trouble for organisations who do unfair things like this is a social good: it makes it harder for them to get away with oppressing people with less favourable circumstances.

I would supply my name but I'm a tenant with the same letting agency and don't want to provoke them into any further outrages against me - beyond those I have already experienced. I will definitely be putting the boot in myself when the time comes.
 
posted by [identity profile] ptc24.livejournal.com at 06:43pm on 20/12/2006
I suppose that there are cases where a reasonable person might accept an otherwise-unfair term in the contract, if it is in exchange for some extra-ordinary consideration. I don't think that this applies in either of your cases.
 
posted by [identity profile] zoeimogen.livejournal.com at 05:22pm on 20/12/2006
I routinely ask for "You may not work for a company with an office within X miles of any of our locations within 12 months of leaving" and "You may not deal with any of our suppliers in another job within 12 months of leaving" clauses to be removed from my employment contract on the basis that it would make me unemployable. No employer has yet refused my request.

I wouldn't bother quibbling, say, a BT phone contract when I took it out however.
 
posted by [identity profile] senji.livejournal.com at 03:21pm on 24/12/2006
My employer's expensive lawyers believe that such terms are unenforcable in the UK (and hence don't include them in their contracts).
 
posted by [identity profile] zoeimogen.livejournal.com at 05:41pm on 24/12/2006
Broadly speaking, your expensive lawyers are correct - but such clauses can still be used to harass people and some employment consultancy companies have them in their stock contracts still. Experience has shown me however that the advice of such companies usually isn't worth much.
 
posted by [identity profile] angoel.livejournal.com at 06:15pm on 20/12/2006
Yes, but I feel it's well within the rights of the people you're complaining to to say words to the effect of 'tough'.
 
posted by [identity profile] angoel.livejournal.com at 06:31pm on 20/12/2006
As a general point, you should probably work out exactly what you want out of this exchange. It's not clear at the moment whether you're trying to get some extra money out of the deal, you're trying to waste Russel's time, you're trying to change Russel's behaviour in the future, or you're venting steam by tilting at windmills.

If you're trying to cut out the service charges, the solution is probably to say 'since you've introduced these service changes I was unaware of, I've changed my mind and will continue for the full tennancy'. If you're trying to waste their time, then suing them seems to be a good idea, and you may get some of the money back - however based on your and Sally's reported levels of free time, it seems rather expensive. I'm not sure of any route to change Russel's behaviour in the future - probably lobbying for better consumer law, finding some bit of consumer law that the contract breaks, or advertising problems with their standard contract (putting up a website highlighting problems would be quite amusing, and may lead to results).

If the tilting at windmills is your aim, then I'll leave that to you.
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posted by [personal profile] aldabra at 03:07pm on 22/12/2006
I was thinking the website was much more What Would Gandhi Do than the suing.
 
posted by [identity profile] mtbc100.livejournal.com at 06:18pm on 20/12/2006
I think that you should take care to study a contract before signing it, and if there are terms that you believe unfair and by which you don't intend to abide, you should make it clear to the other party before they sign that you expect to challenge them in court if they try to push the issue.
 
posted by [identity profile] ghoti.livejournal.com at 06:32pm on 20/12/2006
If the terms in the contract are legally unfair (which is something I'd try to check out before signing), then I would leave them in, on the grounds that they weren't binding. Otherwise, I'd cross out or annotate (or, at the very least, discuss) before signing.
 
posted by [identity profile] robert-jones.livejournal.com at 07:44pm on 20/12/2006
It is clearly moral if, at the time of signing, you indicated that the term in your opinion was unfair and that it was your intention to challenge it on that ground should it ever apply.

I think it is also moral in a wide variety of other situations. The only situation where I suspect it is not moral is where the term was specifically negotiated.
 
posted by [identity profile] theinquisitor.livejournal.com at 09:25pm on 20/12/2006
Yes, *if* new/changed circumstances cause it to bite in ways you weren't thinking of when you signed. (And I do allow 'I didn't think of that' as a new circumstance).
 
posted by [identity profile] arnhem.livejournal.com at 08:53am on 21/12/2006
I'm in agreement with whoever said that you should be worrying about what is most sensible rather than what is most moral. Not because morality is not an issue, but because I suspect that you have a better chance of behaving morally if you do what is sensible than if you use moral arguments to justify a particular course of behaviour.

Pragmatically, I'd recommend ringing Cambridge Trading Standards office and seeing if they're interested. A colleague had a very useful and supportive set of interactions with them (when dealing with a rather different kind of business).

Furthermore, if a few determined people sue Russells and win, it'll just increase their overheads - the cost will be met by other (oppressed) tenants; if several people direct their complaints first through Trading Standards, they'll take note, and may start taking action to improve things for everyone.

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