Following discussion elsewhere, I am interested in what people think about contracts you make with a business. Some people seem to think that you should only ever sign a contract you entirely agree with, whilst others think that challenging unfair contracts later is OK (it's certainly legal, but that's a different question). So, for this case (and not the person-person nor business-business case):
[Poll #892348]
[I'm assuming here that the unfair terms are actually biting]
[Poll #892348]
[I'm assuming here that the unfair terms are actually biting]
(no subject)
(no subject)
For example : Contracts to buy timeshares signed at the end of a high-pressure sales pitch should not be binding (or, rather, should have a "cooling down" period).
(no subject)
I think it may actually be harder to justify challenging them if you kicked up a fuss before signing the contract, since that would indicate that although you didn't like the terms you did understand them and signed anyway.
Now, what would you be interested in getting in exchange for that soul of yours? :)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Perhaps some people believe that ultimately, what's best for them is that they behave in a moral fashion.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
If:
a) Signing a contract was a much rarer event than it is,
b) Contracts were more clearly written, and things that were likely to be contentious were seperated from all of the boring motherhood-and-apple-pie stuff, and
c) Contracts were made available in advance for your perusal so that you (or experts acting on your behalf) could examine them *before* going through all of the hassle of applying for something,
and consequently,
d) this actually meant that people were much less willing to try and slip crap terms into contracts than they are currently,
then I'd be a lot happier for "fair" to be decided as "what was agreed at the time the contract was signed" rather than a much broader notion that encompasses social attitudes, legislation and legal precedent.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
This would tend to be due to bad drafting, although a lot of these things only become obvious in hindsight.
Hypothetical example:
You insure your house for all risks, but the small print excludes damage caused by a riot, and gives the current police definition of a riot. The reason behind this is that the police will pay compensation for riot damage, so you don't need insurance.
Part way through the policy, the police change the definition of a riot slightly. You're no longer covered (Or covered twice!).
It would, I think, be moral to challenge the policy to suggest it should read 'whatever is defined as a riot by the police when the incident happens'.
Of course, the insurance company might be able to argue that factoring in possible changes of definitions would have made the policy more expensive.
However, as the insurance company were the ones who drafted the contract, I think they have more of a moral obligation than the purchaser to ensure the contract is drafted well enough that the small print conforms to the underlying intentions and expectations of the contract.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Also you might not find out that your contract is 'unfair' untill you have signed it. For example I am happy with my employment contract but if I were to discover that if they had hired a similarly qualified man he would have been paid more then that is unfair.
I don't think you should ever challenge 'unfair' contracts that you didn't need to sign in the first place - like holiday bookings for instance.
(no subject)
I don't feel they need to have refused to budge; their equivocating or procrastinating would be enough for me.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
You cannot have a fair contract between someone who is relying upon a contract for shelter and someone who's relying on it for something less fundamental (in the Maslow sense) in a situation where there's a cartel on shelter, or inelastic supply; any more than you can have a fair contract between someone who has all the food and someone who is hungry.
I must say that I'm a little amazed that you feel that a letting agency, whose principal purpose seems to be to dehumanize the interactions between landlords and tenants and generally perpetuate injustices, would be affected by moral arguments, or that these people who have some residual contractual obligations over you, is a politic place to start in dealing with housing injustices, beyond any material gain.
I'm sure that many of the people who work there, if not all of them, are trapped in a cycle of work, debt, and so on, and are victims of the injustice as much as you are. It's a kind of institutional immorality, rather than a personal one.
It seems a little like titling at windmills to me, though I suppose it's an honourable end, all other things being equal.
(no subject)
I think the point I am making is that people sometimes forget that they are legally entitled to alter a contract before signing it. It is then up to the contract holders to agree or not. They have underwriters to, well, underwrite it. You don't. Another way to deal with it is to request time to run it past a solicitor. Then watch the smiles become a bit fixed. I don't think I'd have had the balls to do that with my job contract. Of course none of this is easy when someone is dangling the keys to a roof over your head and you have a deadline pinning you into a corner.
And my don't we all have 20/20 hindsight... Good luck with it all.
(no subject)
(no subject)
The law recognises that individuals are often at a disadvantage when negotiating contracts, and that as a result contract often come to contain conditions which are unreasonable. If such a contract is challenged in court, any clauses deemed to be "Unfair" may be struck out and held unenforceable.
http://www.oft.gov.uk/Consumer/Unfair+terms+in+contracts/what+are+unfair+terms.htm
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/36623FC6-E9BC-4D9A-B4BF-39191E06F802/0/oft381.pdf
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DAAEFE58-1AAB-422A-AFED-BDE6C654A4EE/0/oft356.pdf (this one looks useful, especially around page 27)
Of course, it keeps happening because few people choose to challenge them.
Put the boot in
In particular:
Terms which are unfair ought not to be in form contracts at all: putting them in is both immoral and illegal (in the sense that if someone can be bothered thay can be struck down and the organisation told not to include them any longer). So any organisation putting unfair terms into its contracts ought to expect them to be ignored, struck down, contested, etc.
It is therefore fair enough to sign a contract knowing that some of the terms might not be enforceable and so you might not need to abide by them. This is no more of a sharp practice than putting the terms in to start with.
As others have noted, it is hardly the case that you have equal bargaining power. If you object to terms because they were unfair, the letting agent will show you the door and your choice of housing will be seriously restricted.
Note also that you are doing unto them just as they would do unto you. No-one is seriously suggesting that your counterparty would avoid taking advantage of any and every loophole to gain advantage. Indeed in your tale we see quite the opposite. If they are willing to do whatever they can get away with then it's quite fair for you to do the same. You owe them no quarter.
Indeed, making trouble for organisations who do unfair things like this is a social good: it makes it harder for them to get away with oppressing people with less favourable circumstances.
I would supply my name but I'm a tenant with the same letting agency and don't want to provoke them into any further outrages against me - beyond those I have already experienced. I will definitely be putting the boot in myself when the time comes.
Re: Put the boot in
(no subject)
I wouldn't bother quibbling, say, a BT phone contract when I took it out however.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
If you're trying to cut out the service charges, the solution is probably to say 'since you've introduced these service changes I was unaware of, I've changed my mind and will continue for the full tennancy'. If you're trying to waste their time, then suing them seems to be a good idea, and you may get some of the money back - however based on your and Sally's reported levels of free time, it seems rather expensive. I'm not sure of any route to change Russel's behaviour in the future - probably lobbying for better consumer law, finding some bit of consumer law that the contract breaks, or advertising problems with their standard contract (putting up a website highlighting problems would be quite amusing, and may lead to results).
If the tilting at windmills is your aim, then I'll leave that to you.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
I think it is also moral in a wide variety of other situations. The only situation where I suspect it is not moral is where the term was specifically negotiated.
(no subject)
(no subject)
Pragmatically, I'd recommend ringing Cambridge Trading Standards office and seeing if they're interested. A colleague had a very useful and supportive set of interactions with them (when dealing with a rather different kind of business).
Furthermore, if a few determined people sue Russells and win, it'll just increase their overheads - the cost will be met by other (oppressed) tenants; if several people direct their complaints first through Trading Standards, they'll take note, and may start taking action to improve things for everyone.