What's in season when, then? : comments [Matthew's Journal]

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I am amazed at the idea of people not knowing when fruits/berries are in season. I mean, even living in a city, there are still plants around! There's still flowers, and they come out in spring when everything stops being dead and cold; and eventually their petals fall off, and there's a lumpy bit underneath, and that's the fruit; and that gets bigger and ripens and then if it's not poisonous you can eat it, probably; and then they all fall off and go rotten, and leaves do the same, and everything goes slushy and rainy, then everything goes cold and dead again. That's yer seasons, and, I mean, you don't have to be some kind of mental hippy living up a tree to see that happening. There are probably even flowers in London, in, um, a park, or something.

And ducks, yeah, I didn't tick them actually, but it's probably like chickens and stuff, innit. I mean, you get eggs in the spring, like easter eggs, you know, and then they hatch into chicks, and then they grow up a bit, and then OM NOM NOM. Or something along those lines.

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I live in the countryside, however, I ticked "none of the above" because I would only be hazarding a vague guess as to which month. I never have cause to wonder when things are in season, in a detailed way, or rather, to memorise it - probably since we can get most things when we want/need them, and how in season they are is reflected in a. where we get them from b. how much they cost and c. whether they are being labelled as "British" or "in season" or "just dug up" or whatever.

I personally don't see anything wrong with this since I don't grow them myself - I also don't know when non-fruit/vege plants come into season, much, although I could probably hazard a guess at vague seasonality of most regular things including crops and flowers.

I know when it's potato picking time, since I see them being picked, likewise other harvests, I just haven't bothered to note it in advance, it just happens & I take note at the time. Is there necessarily anything wrong with this approach? I know that most things aren't in season in the winter, that's not the same as knowing exactly *when* though.

I don't think this not-knowing is equaivalent to "not having a clue", maybe we are just so used to the pace of rural life we don't give it a thought, it just is what it is when it is, such as the lambs waking us up in the mornings, which will in a fairly short while be gone, and heading to the abbatoir sometime after that!

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I would only be hazarding a vague guess as to which month

Err, but, it's not about the month, totally, is it? I mean, yer fruits don't actually know about the calendar. If summer comes early, summer fruits will be "in season" earlier. etc.

I never have cause to wonder when things are in season, in a detailed way, or rather, to memorise it

It's hardly a question of "memorising" to know that raspberries are not "in season" in this country in February!

probably since we can get most things when we want/need them, and how in season they are is reflected in a. where we get them from b. how much they cost and c. whether they are being labelled as "British" or "in season" or "just dug up" or whatever.

But it's precisely because you can buy anything whenever you want it -- regardless of the cost to the environment -- that it's useful to have a vague idea of what's really in season, so that when you see raspberries for sale marked as "British" and "in season" in February you don't just think "oh well that must be all right then".

Of course, if you don't care about the seasonality (for whatever reason) then no, there's no need to worry about all the tedious memorising of when summer is, etc: you can buy anything you want whenever you want.

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Indeed, this poll arose from a story elsewhere of how Tesco sell "local" "in-season" raspberries at this time of year. They import plants from Mexico that are about to fruit, and stick them in polytunnels.

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However I *didn't* say that I didn't know that rasps aren't in season in Feb, or indeed that supermarkets don't twist the truth (I wasn't born yesterday), all I was saying that I use a variety of prompts and clues (rather than having a specific knowledge, sat at my computer on a windy March morning, where I can pluck detailed answers out of the air), that trigger a vague notion of "ah, it's such and such a time, such and such is in season now, maybe we will treat outselves to some strawbs" and thoughts to that effect.

Since I only buy 4 things of the list with anything approaching regularity, & can't afford at least half of them, in season or not, there's no good reason why I would know specifically when most of it is in season (although I know a summer fruit when I see one - and as we have seen, the question is a little unanswerable as it depends on all sorts of factors (such as how grown, location, weather, etc). This doesn't make me some kind of super environmental destroyer, as I'm not buying lots of the stuff at alarmingly out of season times flown in from half way round the globe - I'm simply not buying it, period ;)

It's interesting how people jump to conclusions though, I bet our green credentials are much better than a lot of people despite doing our shopping mainly at a supermarket and my lack of gardening skill - I've never been on a plane in my life, for a start, which gives my carbon footprint a massive headstart I should imagine, and we've always run economical cars (one between 4) and used a lot of public transport in our time (we still do sometimes; although the bus fare going up even higher than the diesel now means my partner has reverted to taking the car to work except on the days I need it, although it's not far, so that's fairly green anyway, living near work).

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. o 0 { gooseberries, gosh, I remember picking those, out of the back of the house at 121, now, what time of year was that ... must have been warm ... must have had free time ... summer? Don't remember it coinciding with blackberry picking but perhaps it did... can't think I've seen any gooseberries lately... not even in a *shop* actually... hm }

. o 0 { leeks, oh, hm, my aunt picked me some fresh leeks straight out of the ground when I last visited, now when *was* that?? }

I mean, you might notice these things as they go past but not remember when they were, by later, unless you have some incentive to remember.

(. o 0 { ducks? aren't they like, you know, people and that, can get born/killed any time?? })

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Well, yeah, so you know that gooseberries are summer-ish fruits, right? So if you see them in Tesco as "in season" in February, you suspect you're being sold a pup?

I really don't think anybody ever gave me a conscious incentive to remember that cherry blossom came out in spring and turned into cherries in the summer/autumn. It's not some kind of arcane witchy pagan knowledge or nerdy memorising of dates and numbers. It's just walking around with my eyes open.

I wonder if this is an age thing. When I was a kid you didn't get "summer fruits" all year round, honestly, that's why they were called "summer fruits", because they happened in, duh, summer. And no, I don't know exactly what day summer begins on, and exactly what time it ends at, because it doesn't work like that. Am I really that old?

Ducks, um, well, I assumed the question was talking about duck which was (to some extent) wild, rather than e.g. battery-farmed. Wild birds don't just get born and die at any time of the year. You know... nests? eggs? spring? not-having-any-food-in-winter?

... I feel like some kind of weird relic of an imaginary Enid Blyton 1950s. :-(

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Well, yeah, so you know that gooseberries are summer-ish fruits, right? So if you see them in Tesco as "in season" in February, you suspect you're being sold a pup?

Yeah, I guess, or foreign gooseberries, or something (you know. They might be "in season" in ... er... abroad. Australia! Do gooseberries even grown in Australia? I know nothing. in February, right?).

"I don't know exactly what day summer begins on, and exactly what time it ends at"

When I was a kid, I'm sure summer started on the last day of the summer term ... :)

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Yeah, I guess, or foreign gooseberries

Ngghh. Yes! Precisely! Part of the point of wanting to know when things are in season here is to reduce food miles, ie buy stuff that's grown locally instead of stuff that's been flown in from abroad!

("I think we're encountering the middle of this conversation.")

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mm. our local grocer is quite good about labelling stuff with country of origin. (don't Tesco do that??).

mind you I'd also assume, possibly erroneously, that things could be grown out of season "locally" in some kind of greenhousery thing.

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Yes. Yes, things can be grown in greenhouses or polytunnels; and yes, supermarkets do label things with country of origin. (I suspect there will now be a barrage of comments from people telling me how they never needed to learn that supermarkets sold fruit, or they don't memorise the names of countries so how can they be expected to know what "abroad" is.)

Anyway, originally, I said, "So if you see them in Tesco as 'in season' in February, you suspect you're being sold a pup", and you said, "Yeah, I guess, or foreign gooseberries, or something". Yes, obviously, I do look at the country-of-origin information if I'm buying from somewhere that provides that information, that's not the point. If you know that fruit ripens in summer/autumn then you don't need to look at the country of origin to know that raspberries aren't going to have grown normally, in this country, in February.

Of course, if you can label anything as "in season" on the grounds that it's in season somewhere, or it's in season in a greenhouse, it rather devalues the words "in season", but hey, now I know I'm weird for having noticed summer and remembered that it's different from winter, I'm happy to accept that I'm weird for remembering that words used to have meanings as well.

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It's interesting to read this, since actually, I think my knowledge, and remembrance of bygone summers and not having summer fruits in supermarkets in the winter (etc etc), is actually not dissimilar to yours. I just thought the poll was asking slightly more specific questions. Maybe I should have had more confidence.

Interesting about this food miles issue, and yes I agree in principle that the less food miles we all use on average the better - but what about non-food miles, is *everything* you buy local? - and how much stuff that isn't food do you actually buy? (In my case, the answer is frankly not a lot, and not buying much is green in itself).

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but what about non-food miles, is *everything* you buy local?

Almost certainly not. Unfortunately I know that round here (Cambridge, LiveJournal) it's considered worse to try to improve your environmental impact in some areas, bit by bit, than just to do nothing.

I confess, I bought some ibuprofen yesterday: I have no idea where the tablets are made, where the plastic blister-packs are made (and it's plastic therefore it's evil anyway), where the cardboard is made. I suspect I should have just drank some home-brewed gin to dull the pain, or just accepted that pain is part of life.

- and how much stuff that isn't food do you actually buy?

Not that much, really. And nearly all the unnecessary stuff I buy (books, clothes, music etc) I get second-hand from charity shops. That's fairly local and fairly green. I do buy toiletries -- toothpaste, shampoo, soap etc -- which is probably unforgivable when I could make them all at home; but working full time doesn't leave me with as much time as I'd like to do that sort of thing. On the other hand, since I work with computers, there's probably no way I can offset that evil, & I should probably just give up the job and become a self-sufficient farmer or a Buddhist monk or something.

Are you interrogating everybody in this way, out of interest, or have you just picked on me for daring to have an opinion?

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I'm not really interrogating, I was just interested to see what your values were on these related issues. (Not related to the poll, but to some of your later comments).

I'm not aiming to pass judgement at all, just to point out that someone who doesn't fall over backwards to care hugely about the precise seasonality of, mostly, luxury items isn't necessarily one of these people who couldn't care less and is massively damaging the planet due to their food shopping habits, which is what I felt you were saying with some of your previous answers (to me, and to other people). You sounded extremely critical and jumped to many conclusions.

I completely agree that doing things bit by bit is valuable. Every little bit helps. And sensible, since a radical overhaul of a lifestyle isn't as easy as it sounds, as you have implied. The point I want to make is, that not everyone will be doing it bit by bit in the same order or with the same emphases as you. For example, I've got a limited budget, and young mouths to get at least 5 a day into, and therefore neither the in-season-ness of apples & cucucmber, or the air travel of bananas (all popular here and good for lunchboxes) nor the seasonality of duck (can't afford it, except for an annual treat when it's on special offer), are as high on my agenda as they might be on yours, but other things might be higher on mine than yours.

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someone who doesn't fall over backwards to care hugely about the precise seasonality of, mostly, luxury items

Oh for crying out loud. The point was that somebody who was taking part in a debate on seasonality of foods seemed to be arguing that fruit was "seasonal" if it was "in season abroad", which was making a nonsense of the terms of the debate.

I don't expect people to "fall over backwards to care" about anything; most people don't care about most things. I was, and still am, baffled at the sheer number of people whose response to the question seemed to be "how/why on earth would I know when fruit grow?", not because of their reasons or otherwise for caring or not caring but because I'm just amazed that it's possible to get to the age of 30 or thereabouts and not realised that "to every thing there is a season".

not everyone will be doing it bit by bit in the same order or with the same emphases as you

Yes, I KNOW THAT. And the question of priorities wasn't in any way my point, or even something I was interested in debating, until you charged in with "so have you ever bought something non-local? Are you perfect? ARE YOU? You BUY THINGS! BURN THE WITCH!" and for some reason I bothered to defend myself against drive-by tosspottery.

For example, I've got a limited budget, and young mouths to get at least 5 a day into

Oh, stop it, you're breaking my heart.

other things might be higher on mine than yours

Yes, yes. You win at green. Happy now?

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I'm quite comfortable in my approach to the whole thing, so maybe the issue is your comfort with *your* approach to it. You're starting to rant irrationally for no apparent reason that I can see (other than "chip on shoulder" about some aspect of it?), so I am taking no further part in the discussion after this post. It's been interesting though overall, and I shall perhaps spend the summer pointing out the seasonality of the work going on around us (for the kids) just in case it is something we've skipped over a bit too much at our house (and I mean that genuinely, not sarcastically, none of my posts were sarcastic).

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Tesco do, it seems, fly about-to-fruit raspberries in from Mexico, plant them in Cambridgeshire in polytunnels, and sell the result as "local, in season reaspberries" in February.

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Hmm. I know cherry blossom comes out in spring now; but I dunno if I could have told you that when I was 20. (Knowing now is mostly by having learnt about the Japanese cultural associations; and I hope I could have made an intelligent guess anyway.) I certainly couldn't point out a cherry tree by blossom, and I don't remember having seen cherries actually on a tree. I don't even know for sure that you can grow cherries sensibly in this country (although I'm guessing from the conversation here that the answer would be 'yes'...)

I could tell you that raspberries aren't in season in February, but that's not the same thing as knowing when they are in season.

I suspect this is a combination of never having needed to care and not having a very good memory.

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I'm genuinely surprised at all these people who talk about never "needing to care" about, or not bothering to "memorise", things like "roughly what time of year flowers come out".

I can assure you I never sat down with a big almanack of Flowering Times In Great Britain and memorised the numbers, or made a conscious resolution to study the habits of cherry trees. I didn't "need to know" what spring or summer looked/felt like any more than I "needed to know" that the sky was kind of blueish or greyish most of the time. And no, I didn't grow up in some kind of rural idyll, just ordinary suburban houses with gardens! Maybe I am unusual in having noticed the world around me; but until getting into this bizarre conversation I honestly would have said that asking people "when does [most] fruit ripen?" was like asking "what colour are leaves?" or "does it ever rain in this country?"

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What I was trying to get at with the 'never needed to know' remark was that ripening fruit didn't really impinge on my consciousness as I was growing up (unlike snow in winter, leaves falling in autumn, etc), and that since I had no requirement to go and find out the answer, I remain in the default state of 'not knowing'.

I have realised that "know nothing about the seasons of fruit" is a bit of an exaggeration, though -- pick-your-own strawberries was a summertime-ish activity, so that's one I do know. (In fact I seem to have an odd desire to exaggerate in the direction of 'I know nothing' during this conversation, which is not very helpful.)

I do notice these things in some sense ("doesn't this bit look nice when the trees are in blossom", "hmm, blackberries along this lane now") -- but I couldn't tie those memories to a time of year with as much precision/confidence as seemed to be demanded by the original poll.

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I second all this. It's what I was getting at too.

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But some fruits keep considerably better than others; if something can be plucked from the tree and stored naturally without spoiling, I'd think that it would be "in season" even if that fruit isn't available on trees.

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October