(no subject) [Matthew's Journal]

You're viewing

emperor's journal
Create a Dreamwidth Account Learn More

Reload page in style: site light

←

→

We had a few friends round for dinner last night, and I set the table as I usually do; this prompted some discussion of where the pudding utensils should have been arranged...

[Poll #1573723]

←

→

There are 46 comments on this entry. (Reply.)

I noticed recently that I seem to have got into the habit (at some point over the past few decades) of placing knives blade outwards rather than inwards (towards the plate) and that roughly nobody else seems to do this.

WP rationalises convention thus: 'The blade of the knife, as the "dangerous" or "aggressive" part of the utensil, must face toward the plate, away from other diners.'

[link] [parent] [reply]

I was pondering what most posh restaurants do, but what they do is bring you new cutlery for each course, so it always goes at the sides.

We normally put them at the top, and

robert_jones doesn't complain, so I think it must be alright ;>

According to wiki that's only okay for semi-formal occasions, or something. But unsurprisingly there seem to be arguments on the discussion page about that.

[link] [parent] [reply]

Place setting is one of those subjects on which opinions do differ. For instance, I've seen it said that a place-setting out to have no more than three pieces of silverware on any side, and if more is required it should be relaid half-way through the meal. But on the other hand, I've certainly been to many formal dinners where vast ranks of silverware have been laid on either side of the place-setting.

It does seem to be usual though, to lay at least some silverware at the top of the place-setting, either for the sweet or the savoury course (but never for dessert). I think it gives the place-setting a nicely rounded look. Sometimes the staff move the utensils in question to the sides before serving the relevent course.

[link] [parent] [reply]

Restaurants normally can't put out cutlery for dessert until people have chosen which they're having.

Just once, in Midsummer House, I've seen a complete set of service cutlery laid out with the service plate at the start of the meal, then cleared away before the cutlery appropriate to what each person was eating for each course was brought out.

[link] [parent] [reply]

Hrm. A lot of the time I go for tasting menus, so they could theoretically put all the cutlery out. If they had very big tables. Never seen it done though.

[link] [parent] [reply]

It would only make sense if it was a restaurant which only served one menu, so they could lay the tables in advance.

At the monarchist feast, the places were laid for ten or eleven courses. It did mean that the place-settings had to be quite far apart. (We also started with a bewildering forest of wine glasses each.)

[link] [parent] [reply]

I was always taught that the forks followed each other around, and that you used cutlery starting with the outermost implements first.

(S)

Yes. The other mnemonic for pudding irons is that the handles point towards the hands that will pick them up.

[link] [parent] [reply]

If you give me good food, shall I care even if the cutlery is randomised? I think not!

There is that :)

[link] [parent] [reply]

I've no idea. I'm used to desert utensils placed behind the mat, (and think that the practical difference is little, and for all practical purposes, either are acceptable), but I don't know which is "more traditional" amongst people who don't have new cutlery brought in for every course.

Pile all the cutlery in a heap in the middle of the table, everyone helps themselves as needed. ;-)

Given this is a dinner party at home, and not a formal occasion, pudding utensils at the top seems most appropriate.

I'd not be sure which order to put them in if at the side of the plate: working inwards from the starter is the usual order, but they'd look pretty silly on the inside of full-sized dinner knives and forks.

Some restaurants which lay the table with all cutlery will place them at the top and then move them to the sides just before the pudding is served, which seems like a nice compromise.

Yes - I thought it was to do with how formal the occasion is.

[link] [parent] [reply]

PS tell us what you cooked :)

Sausage plat and homemade cheesecake :-)

[link] [parent] [reply]

I think my behaviour would be if only 2 courses (main and pudding) utensils for pudding go at the top (and it would probably only be a spoon) so that you have fork to the left, spoon at the top, knife to the right; but if there are 3+ courses all cutlery goes to the sides in appropriate order.

Yes, this.

[link] [parent] [reply]

just as long as your knife and fork are left straight on the plate when you're finished (6 o clock position) or else I cry small hot tears of autistic RAGE

6:30 position, surely…

[link] [parent] [reply]

Unless one of your guests eats left-handed, in which case the positions (whichever method you're using) should be reversed. :-)

(Actually I don't really mind having to swap my cutlery around, so long as no one around minds me doing it, but it does make me particularly happy when I don't have to!)

My Mum's left-handed, and likes her cutlery set out as if for a right-hander...

[now I come to think of it, I can't remember whether she eats right-handed or left-handed, though]

[link] [parent] [reply]

Hence my using the phrase "eats". :-) I know of a few right-handers who eat left-handed, as well as some left-handers who eat right-handed.

Myself, I'm a lefty and I like eating as a lefty. Which I *think* goes for most of the lefties I know well. Certainly Eve gets happy and excited whenever her cutlery ends up like mine when she's eating at ours! :-)

Hmm, I'm interested now. Going to have to make a poll. :-)

[link] [parent] [reply]

I'm right handed and I swap my cutlery over several times in a typical meal. It's because I'm terribly uncouth so when I'm cutting things up I like the knife in my right hand, but when I'm picking things up and the knife is merely herding food toward the fork, I like to hold the fork in my right hand. At formal dinners I make a conscious effort to keep my knife in my right hand and use the back of my fork.

[link] [parent] [reply]

I seem to remember this back-of-fork thing as being one of those myths, i.e. that people trying to be posh do it more than those that really are. (Whatever that really means anyway).

[link] [parent] [reply]

Hooray! I'm not the only one! In fact, I'm so right-handed that I often just use the fork (I remember my Spanish teacher telling us that she did much the same... and the locals thought she must have injured her left hand, because she wasn't using it!) If anyone ever queries my use of orc irons, I tend to fall back on the axiom: "them as has the most cutlery throw the most bread rolls"!

[link] [parent] [reply]

Oh yes! That is a good question!

I learned "American" table manners as a child, but then only started eating in formal settings once I was living in Germany. Clearly, the American way is just wrong wrong wrong(!!!), but is there a difference between the UK and Europe?

FWIW, I almost never serve individual desserts at a dinner party. I know I don't care for sweets, so I think that everyone should get their choice of cheese, sweets and of course a good serve of port rather than being told what to have as a last course. You may choose your own adventure, as well as utensil!

[link] [parent] [reply]

The majority of left-handed people I know (myself included) eat right-handed...though it's not an overwhleming majority. I guess you could ask.

[link] [parent] [reply]

I'm assuming that pudding is going to be the last course. If you're going to serve a savoury afterwards, the savoury knife and fork should go at the top and the pudding utensils at the side. (Except at Churchill, apparently, where they confused me by putting the pudding utensils at the top, and the savoury utensils to the sides, so I accidentally ate my pudding with my savoury utensils and was left trying to eat an angel-on-horseback with a fort and spoon. But the usual rule for cultery selection is to start at the outside and work in, until you run out of cultery, then move to the top and work down.)

Mmm, pudding...

+ spoon above the fork

None of the above.

Or rather, in a formal service á la russe the dessert cutlery shouldn't be on the table before dessert is served. (I know at least one person who insist on at least the formality of all associations with earlier courses, including condiments, are cleared before dessert is served. Incidently, that's the origin of the word "dessert", desservir la table.)

In less formal dining, above the plate.

I thought that dessert cutlery to be delivered with dessert was an informal thing; maybe it's only formal-but-not-hyperformal dining where the dessert cutlery should be on the table from the start.

[link] [parent] [reply]

It is quite correct that the dessert cutlery (and indeed glasses) should never be laid at the start of the meal, even where dessert is to be eaten at the same table as dinner. However, by 'pudding' I believe Matthew means the sweet course, rather than dessert, and that cutlery is ordinarily laid at the start of the meal.

[link] [parent] [reply]

Er... forgive my ignorance but what is the difference between dessert and sweet course?

[link] [parent] [reply]

A full formal meal finishes with separate courses of Hot Sweet, Cold Sweet, cheese, then dessert (fresh fruit and sorbets).

[link] [parent] [reply]

Can I just have this for my dinner and skip the courses beforehand?

[link] [parent] [reply]

And then people wonder why they've put on three stone in the past month?

[link] [parent] [reply]

I'd assumed that it was the final course of the meal, thus taking the place of dessert.

I'm not sure what the formalities would be in the shocking case of a meal that finished at the entremet chaud and omitted dessert entirely.

[link] [parent] [reply]

I'm not sure what the formalities would be in the shocking case of a meal that finished at the entremet chaud and omitted dessert entirely.

I'd complain loudly to all concerned if I were you. Spoon and fork in hand, drum on the table and chant "We want more" until you get your just desserts.

(NB: This may be a lie)

Which reminds me, I have several people I owe a dinner to (including you) and should really get around to organising something and finding out people's availability.

[link] [parent] [reply]

Spoon & fork pointing the same way. Or, actually, have only ever had puddings where one or other was required. I'd put a pudding-fork above the place-setting so it was clear it was for pudding, rather than for a starter or something.

for a normal meal, I would set the spoon & fork at the top, I think someone else said "forks follow each other round" which would be right.

For a really formal meal with loads of cutlery though, I'd probably put it all on the sides.

on your NEW SHINY Folding Table?

[link] [parent] [reply]

I'm trying to work out whether or not I miss the kind of dinner conversation that includes geekery about cutlery.

July